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BattleofWits
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 206
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 Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: Flash: ban-worthy? |
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With the recent un-errata of Flash, making Hulk Flash a pretty broken deck, is Flash going to be banned?
As FS comes in the deck gets two Pacts and Street Wraith making it an absurdly fast deck.
Here's the list (straight combo version) from Bleiweiss' article on SCG w/FS mods.
4 Flash
4 Protean Hulk
4 Phyrexian Marauder
4 Shifting Wall
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Summoners Pact
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Street Wraith
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Island
It can win on your opponents first upkeep, when you didn't go first... |
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NahHolmes
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah it's bannable. That is an unrefined version someone made in 5 mins. and it still owns like 85% of Legacy. Recently people have been working on refined lists that are much better then the one listed here, and things are only going to get worse the more time people have to work on decklists. |
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BattleofWits
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree, about this being an unrefined list and it being bannable. I just don't get why they changed it back in the first place. |
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Eldariel
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| It makes Legacy very Vintage-like, except with only one good deck and a huge bunch of hate-decks instead of a bunch of good decks and a few hate-decks. Basically, it forces decks into blue and black and it speeds the format up by incredible amounts and it's immune to traditional combo-hate. Very banworthy indeed. Too bad we'll have to wait until June, since they probably don't care about Legacy enough to go about emergency bannings. Back when that was done, the problem was in ALL formats. One format isn't enough to warrant emergency bannings, so we've got a month to meta around hulk. |
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BigShow
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1298
Location: Igloo town
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| You can't really say that, its a card that someone just abused the shit out of |
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gumonshoe
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| what is the refinded list? |
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NahHolmes
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| gumonshoe wrote: | | what is the refinded list? |
A lot of people are seriously sitting on really good lists until after GP which is next weekend. Let's just say instead of trying to win on turn 1 so much it concentrates on being able to win on turns 2-4 through all the intense hate aimed at the deck. |
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RichardDWade
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Can someone explain what it was, and what it is.... |
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BigShow
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1298
Location: Igloo town
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| RichardDWade wrote: | | Can someone explain what it was, and what it is.... |
1u instant, play a creature from your hand, pay its mana cost - 2 or you sac it |
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RichardDWade
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Not what flash is... But the old and new ruling and why it matters. |
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kfcman
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| RichardDWade wrote: | | Not what flash is... But the old and new ruling and why it matters. |
the old errata on flash was that you had to actually pay for it or just went straight to the grave. With this errata it goes to play and then gets sacced which triggers Hulk's leaves play ability. Also, the new karmic guide errata lets guide trigger even if you didnt play it from your hand.
So you flash out Hulk, go get carrion feeder and karmic guide, recur hulk sac it to feeder and get Kiki jiki, then use kiki to copy guide and before the guide token comes in sac kiki to feeder so that you can recur kiki with the guide token. then you use this process to make a bijillion 2/2 Hasty Pro-Black Flyers |
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NahHolmes
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah this deck is retarded. Faster then Beltcher, more hate resistant then IGGy Pop, goes off instantly like Solidarity but less prone to fizzle, and of course you only have to resolve one spell to win. Pretty lame. |
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sc4rs
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 389
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| kfcman wrote: | | RichardDWade wrote: | | Not what flash is... But the old and new ruling and why it matters. |
the old errata on flash was that you had to actually pay for it or just went straight to the grave. With this errata it goes to play and then gets sacced which triggers Hulk's leaves play ability. Also, the new karmic guide errata lets guide trigger even if you didnt play it from your hand.
So you flash out Hulk, go get carrion feeder and karmic guide, recur hulk sac it to feeder and get Kiki jiki, then use kiki to copy guide and before the guide token comes in sac kiki to feeder so that you can recur kiki with the guide token. then you use this process to make a bijillion 2/2 Hasty Pro-Black Flyers |
The version that is listed above runs off a different combo and is more resilient to hate. The one above fetches 4x Shifting Wall, 4x Phyrexian Marauder, and 4x Disciple of the Vault. When they come into play, state-based effects put the Shifting/Marauders into the grave, and the Vault triggers go on the stack. Because all of this happens off of state-based effects/triggers once Flash resolves, your opponent will never have a chance to respond because you never need to pass priority except right before the Hulk ability resolves and right before the Vault abilities kill your opponent. It also gives you an extra 2 mana to search out Meddling Mage to name any disruption card they may have to prevent the damage, or Monk Realist to kill any Engineered Plagues/Solitary Confinements they may have. |
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Jacois
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, personally I think this is hilarious. I love it. Is GP Columbus including FS? Maybe I'll make the trip, this looks like easy money. |
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NahHolmes
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacois wrote: | | Well, personally I think this is hilarious. I love it. Is GP Columbus including FS? Maybe I'll make the trip, this looks like easy money. |
No FS, also like you are the only person with this idea. Seriously like 40% of the field could be Hulk Flash. There are non-FS versions that use Daze instead of Blue Pact and Worldly Tutor instead of Green Pact. |
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