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Playing a spell: Announcing and Paying costs.


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CookieCutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 8
Location: ATL

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Playing a spell: Announcing and Paying costs. Reply with quote

Ok.

My opponent is playing Affinity and his board is as follows:

Great Furnace
Ornithopter
Chromatic Sphere
Arcbound Worker

It is the beginning of his Turn 3, Main Phase I.

He does the following:

He "Announces" Thoughtcast, taps Furnace for R, and uses it to pop the Sphere for blue.

Can he still play the thoughtcast for U? Is it now 1U?

He claims he can because you announce a spell, then pay all cost for it, then put it onto the stack.

The way I see it is, he announces thoughtcast, then pays the cost, but he only has three artifacts in play, so the thoughtcast costs 1U.

But, I am not sure if you can "Announce" a spell then do something to alter it's mana cost, or announce a spell without the mana to cast it at your disposal.

Could someone please go in depth on the actual parts of playing a spell, and all that jazz? It would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, I'm a n00b, so go easy on me.

:-/
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ynnus



Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if he pops the chromatic sphere the thoughtcast will cost 1U so hes wrong and your right.

im 100% sure the guy above me is not right.

there really is no such thing as announcing a spell.

your actually supposed to add mana to your mana pool first and then use that mana to cast a spell.

some people throw their card out first then tap for mana though. it doesn't bother me either way.
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Thorns



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 863
Location: Rath

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, in MTG, since 6th edition, we have something called the stack. Here is how it works: The last spell or ability played resolves first and then in order from most recent, and so on.
Now, if he plays Thoughcast first, paying U due Affinity, then activates a Sphere, the Thoughcast has already been played and paid for and won't check the amount of artifacts in play anymore. Affinity checks the amount of artifacts when the spell is cast.
EDIT: I reread the question, and the way I understood it this time is, he played the Thoughcast using the blue mana produced by the Sphere. He will have to pay 1U for the 'Cast because you can't announce a spell, play another ability and then pay for the spell, this would make a lot of cards extremely broken!


Last edited by Thorns on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tinefol



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ynnus, you are in fact deeply wrong.

Lets go in depth.

Playing spell requires a couple of steps to be completed. Skipping irrelevant few, read carefully step f (409/comprehensive rules for reference):
Quote:
The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability.
Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for
abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their
text, and some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may
include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents,
discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation
cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all cost
reductions. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes "locked in."
If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no
effect.


and g
Quote:
g - If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a
chance to play mana abilities (see Rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities").
Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.


Chromatic's sphere ability is mana ability, which can be played now. Even though sacrificing sphere affects Affinity static ability, it doesn't affect "locked in" total cost anymore. So the play is correct


Last edited by Tinefol on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:28 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Tinefol



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thorns wrote:

EDIT: I reread the question, and the way I understood it this time is, he played the Thoughcast using the blue mana produced by the Sphere. He will have to pay 1U for the 'Cast because you can't announce a spell, play another ability and then pay for the spell, this would make a lot of cards extremely broken!


You are perfectly OK to play mana abilities this way though.
Quote:
411.2 - A player may play an activated mana ability whenever he or she has
priority, or whenever he or she is playing a spell or activated ability
that requires a mana payment.
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ynnus



Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok il admit i was wrong but ive just never seen anyone play it that way before.

and i really dont think he can play thoughtcast like that.

can someone clear this up please.


Last edited by ynnus on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Thorns



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 863
Location: Rath

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinefol wrote:
Thorns wrote:

EDIT: I reread the question, and the way I understood it this time is, he played the Thoughcast using the blue mana produced by the Sphere. He will have to pay 1U for the 'Cast because you can't announce a spell, play another ability and then pay for the spell, this would make a lot of cards extremely broken!


You are perfectly OK to play mana abilities this way though.
Quote:
411.2 - A player may play an activated mana ability whenever he or she has
priority, or whenever he or she is playing a spell or activated ability
that requires a mana payment.

I didn't say he wasn't allowed to play the Sphere ability, but it can't be activated before Thoughcast is paid for.
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ynnus



Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Costs may
include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents,
discarding cards, and so on.

g - If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a
chance to play mana abilities (see Rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities").
Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.

since sacrificing the chromatic sphere is in the cost, thoughtcast becomes 1U.

i need some clarification on this cuz this is a big change for me.


Last edited by ynnus on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tinefol



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thorns wrote:

You are perfectly OK to play mana abilities this way though.
Quote:
411.2 - A player may play an activated mana ability whenever he or she has
priority, or whenever he or she is playing a spell or activated ability
that requires a mana payment.

I didn't say he wasn't allowed to play the Sphere ability, but it can't be activated before Thoughcast is paid for.

It can be played after Thoughtcast's total cost is determined, but before Thoughtcast's total cost is actually paid, because its mana ability.


Last edited by Tinefol on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thorns



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 863
Location: Rath

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thorns wrote:

EDIT: I reread the question, and the way I understood it this time is, he played the Thoughcast using the blue mana produced by the Sphere. He will have to pay 1U for the 'Cast because you can't announce a spell, play another ability and then pay for the spell, this would make a lot of cards extremely broken!

Read that ynnus.
Tinefol wrote:
It can be played before Thoughtcast cost is paid, because its mana ability.

In which case thoughcast will cost 1U.

To make things clear to everyone: Costs for spells are paid AS the spell is played, not after! You may add mana to your mana pool and then use it to pay for a spell but extra costs are paid AS the spell is announced.


Last edited by Thorns on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tinefol



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ynnus wrote:
Costs may
include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents,
discarding cards, and so on.

g - If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a
chance to play mana abilities (see Rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities").
Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.

since sacrificing the chromatic sphere is in the cost, thoughtcast becomes 1U.

i need some clarification on this cuz this is a big change for me.


Sacrificing chromatic sphere is not in the total cost of Thoughtcast. Total cost is determined as "U" at the time and "fixed in" then you're able to play mana abilities (chromatic sphere's one is mana ability), then you pay the total cost of Thoughtcast (which is still "U" as it been "fixed").
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ynnus



Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK so if he activates sphere first he cant play thoughtcast but if he "announces hes playing thoughtcast then uses th esphere, he can play it.

is tha tright?


Last edited by ynnus on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Thorns



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 863
Location: Rath

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinefol wrote:
ynnus wrote:
Costs may
include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents,
discarding cards, and so on.

g - If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a
chance to play mana abilities (see Rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities").
Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.

since sacrificing the chromatic sphere is in the cost, thoughtcast becomes 1U.

i need some clarification on this cuz this is a big change for me.


Sacrificing chromatic sphere is not in the total cost of Thoughtcast. Total cost is determined as "U" at the time and "fixed in" then you're able to play mana abilities (chromatic sphere's one is mana ability), then you pay the total cost of Thoughtcast (which is still "U" as it been "fixed").

You cannot play Thoughcast and then scarifice Sphere to pay for it.
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Zsoltsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is very much allowed to play thoughtcast like that.
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Taoofss



Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 321

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Affinity
Affinity is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. “Affinity for [text]” means “This spell costs you {1} less to play for each [text] you control.” The affinity ability reduces only generic mana costs. It doesn’t reduce how much colored mana you have to pay for a spell. It can’t reduce the cost to play a spell to less than 0. See rule 502.31, “Affinity.”

"Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Some effects are replacement effects or prevention effects. State-based effects are not created by spells or abilities; they are generated by specific states of the game."

(Spells are put on the stacked and than checked for affinity)
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