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Why aren't we allowed to exploit cheaters?


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Why aren't we allowed to exploit cheaters? Reply with quote

I understand sort of where the league is coming from, but isn't it in the best interest of a decent playing environment for cheaters to be exploited so that people don't play against them in single matches (and are warned in tournaments)?

As I sort of alluded to, the idea behind people ranting about cheaters on forums and in chat rooms is so that they don't get any more games, and people don't have to get fucked over by them. For instance, whenever I see someone playing "[c1ao]" in a tournament or for a single match (harder to spot), I always PM them saying that he's a cheater and to watch out.. which I think is helpful.

Honestly, since the league can't prevent that sort of thing, why not let players go all out and make it easier for them to do a perceivably good thing? That is, informing everyone who the cheaters are so that they don't get screwed over when playing them?

I myself have reported three cheaters/false reporters and two of the times I had logs. In one of these two cases there were complications (which I'm still bitter about but whatever) so I didn't get my rating back, but in the other case I DID get my rating back. So essentially, the league acknowledges that someone falsely reported and yet... there is no punishment for them.

Basically people can falsely report all the games they want and yes, they WILL get away with quite a few of them, and those they don't get away with don't even incur some kind of punishment. Really, I think this is the best way to 'punish' these people because it means that they don't get to commit the offence again, since no one will play against them!

I know this looks like a complaint against the league but that isn't the spirit of this post. Really I'm just making a suggestion that, while it seems spiteful as hell, contributes to a healthy playing environment by not allowing cheaters to.. well, cheat.
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When proven, cheaters are disqualified and banned.

However, it's not necessary to randomly accuse (and destroy reputation) of users.
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well why not..? People aren't going to cheat if they know it'll do that to them. Do you think Mike Long would have cheated if he knew that the entire magic-playing community would shit such a giant brick?

Random accusations I don't exactly agree with but someone proposed a thread where they'd list people who cheated against them; that sort of thing /with proof/, I'd totally support, because then cheaters would get a punishment that lasts...
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And apparently you can't read. I have had logs of two situations of being cheated and I have protested both of these. One of them was too convoluted to get me my rating back but the second one actually DID get me my rating back.

What I'm saying is that I should be allowed to exploit those people, who I've had proof of them cheating against me. I'm not saying I should be allowed to make a thread devoted to how much [c1ao] is a filthy cheater because I made the mistake of not saving logs for those games.

Again I understand the league's position on this, but I think that it would be more 'for the players' to screw over the cheaters.
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet again your illiteracy is showing. I had flawless proof for one match which actually got me my rating back. Apparently the proof was good enough to get me my rating back so what the hell are you saying?

The person never was punished although I got my rating back. Are people supposed to be punished for falsely reporting? I'm not exactly sure how it works, but in any case I guess my stance on this is that their punishment should be.. uhh...bigger? And it should entail the embarrassment of everyone knowing they cheated
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's very likely that it was unintentional? Now let's be realistic. How many times has anyone actually wrongly misreported something? It's far from 'very likely'.

I think if we're going to hinge on a balance of probabilities and go for what's 'likely', I think my opponent being bitter about the loss, calling me a lucky sob or a noob or whatever makes it a bit more likely that he was driven to intentionally falsely report than the absurd possibility that he just casually screwed up, completely accidentally, when reporting.

I know it sounds like an innocent suggestion but people rarely misreport by accident. Besides, the guy even admitted in the channels the other day that he did it on purpose. In any case, we're missing the point: I don't think that people who can't control themselves and misreport games should enjoy the virtue of playing the game undisturbed by what they've done in the past, especially if it's along the lines of cheating.
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not the only one making clear distinctions. I'm saying that in the case of someone who clearly falsely reports intentionally, everyone should know about it so that you don't get more people dissatisfied with how things are and more people being screwed out of rating (let's face it, a lot of people don't save logs, so a lot of newer players may face a cheater and lose out on rating.. this could be prevented if they avoided these people in the first place, and how else to avoid these people than to know who they are?)
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WILEY V.S. NICO

OMG ITS A SLOBBER KNOCKER!!!!! OMGZ0RZ
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

penises
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darksigma



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wiley wrote:
It's very likely that it was unintentional? Now let's be realistic. How many times has anyone actually wrongly misreported something? It's far from 'very likely'.


Well, as a TC i have seen many misreports in minis, for example in the last match of round 1, i get the report at irc, report it and pair round 2, sometimes the guy who won the last match of round 1 go to home page to report his match after i paired round 2, so he misreports for the round thinking hes reporting for round 2.
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Stinky



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just a failure to communicate.

Wiley has a very valid point that cheaters who escape punishment should be brought to people's attention (especially if they admit to cheating).

However, that is a personal decision, wether or not to spend your time talking about how someone cheats over the internet on magic games.

It is Magic-League's best interest to catch anyone who is provably cheating on their site. So if you have sufficient proof to backup your claim, the person will be banned in accordance, and if not, then eventually he will get caught.

You can't ask the league to punish people without proof substantial proof that the person in question is cheating, otherwise they would end up punishing alot of people unneccessarily, which is definitely not what they want to do.

You're obviously pissed Wiley, but keep in mind, this is all about internet points. Anyone who has to sink low enough to cheat to win at a game of magic, just to feel good about themself, probably lives a really shitty life anyway, so they can have the points as far as I'm concerned. If they need to win that badly to be happy, then they have much worse problems than getting caught on Magic-League.
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WoodSage



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I opened a thread much like what Wiley suggested in anger (after I thought I had been cheated - again).

I'm sorry I started it, I should know better than accusing people with no proof.

Next time, which are the proper channels and procedure to complain?

Just to be clear, I did not want to start a flamewar (see http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/about5134.html ).

Just to be clear, I'm very grateful to all the organizers on the site, and I think they do a great job, especially so for doing it for free.

Thanks

Gustavo Fischer (WoodSage over here).
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Laplie



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 561

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WoodSage wrote:

Next time, which are the proper channels and procedure to complain?


In a single league match, click the "protest" button and paste the appropriate logs.

In a tourney, contact the TC and tell them of the problem.

If it is a match that has happened in the past, contact ratings@magic-league.com (neo). Send the relevant logs as well as the match ID.

Complaints about judges: nico@magic-league.com .

If you have specific complaints about a player, you can contact any of the staff on IRC or via e-mail and they will forward it to the proper location.
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WoodSage



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks!

I'll keep all this in mind Smile

Sadly (or fortunately, since I haven't faced cheaters), most of my recent losses are my own doing Razz
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tourney.log (apprentice folder) can be someone's saviour. If everyone knew about that then there'd be way less bitching about cheaters

still I think it'd be nice if proven cheaters were exploited. The fuckers deserve it, after all
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