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The change in Flips.


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This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues
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Neo



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: The change in Flips. Reply with quote

Fraud: something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage

So, what exactly is ratings fraud, and why does it concern you? Ratings fraud is defined as any action which deceives or tricks the ratings system, in order to gain advantages for both yourself and/or your team members. Ratings fraud does not effect the entire population of Magic-League, but it does happen quite often. A Large number of cases involving ratings fraud involve the current system of flips which we allow. Because of this a new system has been constructed. Below are a few examples of how ratings fraud can occur and affect you.

Example (1)
Nico is paired against Neo in round 1 of the T2 APPR Trial. They connect and play game one. Nico discovers his deck is playing his worst match up, and he will definitely lose, so he sends a message to the TC claiming that he wins via flips. The TC Marks the match and pairs round 2, while everyone continues to play. After the match, Neo discovers he was cheated and shows logs. While Neo is able to get his points for round 1 back, he is unable to continue in the tournament.

Example (2)
Nico and Neo are on Team Admin. They are paired vs. each other in round 4 of a T2 MWS Trial. Nico knows that if he drops, he will keep his points and be able to get a ratings invite to the T2 MWS Master. Neo however would need to move on in the tournament, and win his Invites, because his rating is not as good. For this reason, Nico will ‘concede via flips to Neo. Now both players are able to get T2 MWS Master invites, which kicks out someone who would have legally earned their invite. This is ratings fraud.

Example (3)
Nico, Neo, GFO, and Koen enter a T2 APPR Max 8 Tournament. Nico is paired vs. Neo, GFO and Koen both play non-team members. Nico gives Neo the concede via flips, which is essentially a bye. In the next round Neo is paired vs. Koen. Koen does the same thing, and now Neo has made it to the finals where he can possibly get ratings boost, but also free team points, without ever having played a match. This is ratings fraud.

These examples are very prevalent in the league. My job as ratings manager, is to try and remove as much of this as I can. While I can research all instances of flip fraud, I can not catch everyone that does it. Because of this, there are some sacrifices that will need to be made. When the flips system was originally made, it was designed for players who could not connect. Over time, it has been changed and the meaning of the flip system has been corrupted.

We are sorry if this new change inconveniences those of you who have not experienced ratings fraud yet, but those of you who have seen and experienced it, I am sure that you appreciate the rules being put into effect. The league will eventually have a better method, but for now this is the best. A lot of people can put down on us directors and managers, saying that we only use our time to destroy the league, but if that were true, I do not think we still would be here, stronger than ever, over 5 years later.

If you have any suggestions, please contact me on IRC or email Ratings@Magic-League.com OR Neo@Magic-League.com. I am always up for suggestions.


Last edited by Neo on Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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pG



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like neo. he is swell.
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Noremac
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A lot of people can put down on us directors and managers, saying that we only use our time to destroy the league, but if that were true, I do not think we still would be here, stronger than ever, over 5 years later.


So true...Go Neo!
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hawkeye1542



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Example (1)
Nico is paired against Neo in round 1 of the T2 APPR Trial. They connect and play game one. Nico discovers his deck is playing his worst match up, and he will definitely lose, so he sends a message to the TC claiming that he concedes via flips. The TC Marks the match and pairs round 2, while everyone continues to play. After the match, Neo discovers he was cheated and shows logs. While Neo is able to get his points for round 1 back, he is unable to continue in the tournament.


Try actually thinking before you use examples. so u're saying that if nico tells a TC he concedes in flips, and the judge reports this as such, that Neo won't be able to continue playing in the tournament?? how'd u reach that conclusion?? If the TC reports a flip loss for Nico, then Neo will advance in the tournament.......

Furthermore, you just brought up one of the major points of abuse contained within the flip system....judges. By the example u just gave u are stating that the TC reports the flip win w/o first checking with Neo to see if this is accurate? Judges being allowed to report flip wins w/o first checking with both parties is the only problem with the system that you've brought up by this example. If this situation transpired and the TC did what he was supposed to do then Neo wouldn't have any problems.

Quote:
Example (3)
Nico, Neo, GFO, and Koen enter a T2 APPR Max 8 Tournament. Nico is paired vs. Neo, GFO and Koen both play non-team members. Nico gives Neo the concede via flips, which is essentially a bye. In the next round Neo is paired vs. Koen. Koen does the same thing, and now Neo has made it to the finals where he can possibly get ratings boost, but also free team points, without ever having played a match. This is ratings fraud.


This is just delusional. All the rules change does is enter in a random factor about what team member happens to make it to the finals. They can all still have connection problems" and flip anyways, they just won't have total control over who makes the finals......nice job resolving that one. And before you come back with the counter that "at least we're eliminating the flaw w/ the personal ratings even if the team points are still an issue", think about this: What difference are you truly making? Say one member of the team above needed personal rating points so the team would arrange for him to get to the finals and play. Now teams can still get their team points in this fashion and the individual who needs personal points can just play anyone else in a mini or league game anyways.....

The only way to eliminate the issues you've raised is to eradicate the flips system all together. This new rule doesn't fix anything, it just pisses people off who have true circumstances arise after rounds are paired and must leave. There are still loopholes for every issue you've raised and the people determined to exploit those loopholes will continue to do so even after you've made this change for the....cough cough....."better"
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Neo



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, example 1 was flawed. It should have read:

Nico realizes that he is going to lose, so he reports than he won 2-1 via flips to his TC.
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ShadowS



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Example 1 shouldn't be blamed on the old flip system, for one. Thats lazy judging. I haven't been a judge very long, but I have never let anyone move on with flips without asking for confrimation. Even if someone tells me they concede in flips, I still go looking for confrimation.

Example two makes me think of the first thing in this post..

Quote:
Fraud: something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage


The old way wasen't decietful, because it was legit in the first place. You can't do fraud if your following within allowed boundries. It's only fraud now because you say it is. Anything can suddenly become fraud if you change the rules. And it wasen't nessisary for Example 2. First off, if the guy just recieved enough ratings to move on, and didn't want to risk his points he could have dropped anyways. If his teammate was in the trial as well, and they were moving on to the finals, I'm sure they woulda talked before hand on IRC before reporting, and one could just drop anyways. So wheres the logic in this? Furthermore, why should it be considered a crime to help a teammate. It never used to be, and I don't know anyone who complained about that fact anyways.

Example 3 is something that happens, but that has to do more with the team system that it does with the flip system. The example listed here shows a way of abusing team points. (If you want to consider it abuse, to me it was more just.. teamwork). But even if you feel it to be abuse, punishing the flip system doesn't fix it. Because now the exact same thing happens, except some people lose rating. At all points in time one person will advance, and one person will not. And the team can still decide that by conceding and taking a rating hit. Even if you wanted to try and enforce that people have a game of magic to decide who wins, you couldn't stop one team mate from going into the game, and mana burning himself to death. If someone wants to lose, they can lose. Wether or not it flips or not, the team rating will get the exact same adjustment. So if you are truely worried about the team system (Was anyone on a team worried about it?) just change that. The flip system is irrelevent in this manner, because the flip system has to do with personal rating.

I just don't see this crackdown on flips as a logical conclusion to fix anything. I infact don't think it fixes anything at all. It sounds like the problem is lazy or corrupt judges, and a perhaps unworking team system. And this rule change fixed only one thing, a tool for teamwork.
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Neo



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your argument that "it used to be OK" to misuse the flip system is not valid, since it was never intended to be used the way it was being used. It has always been wrong to use it that way, but its now that its become so prevelant that we have decided to make it known we will be actively seeking those who misuse the system, and actions will be taken toward those who are found guilty.
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hawkeye1542



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neo....just out of curiosity....at what point are u guys going to realize that the only proponents of this rules change, and the only people that actually feel like it will accomplish anything are league officials?

try asking people. anyone who is an heavily active league player thinks you are wrong and anyone who is a less involved player is, at best, too uninformed to rationally agree with either side.

but u go on ahead and keep spouting of the same old tripe, which has been effectively counterargued numerous times by numerous people (see the responses to the article regarding this change), and refuse to see any logic but your own. i hope u realize that u're pissing off a lot of your league supporters with this inane attempt at fixing a problem that is, for the most part, a delusional paranoia on your part.
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Zellse



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually agree with this. It is not right to simply concede to your teammates so that you can all have high ratings. I support this action.
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dboy1



Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can we like...vote on it?
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Noremac
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the flips rule I'd like to make a couple points:

1. Whether you choose to admit it or not there HAS been a problem with people abusing the flips program. This has been done in multiple ways:

a. Teams putting all 5 players in a mini and just flipping the result out if paired to a teammate or conceding via flips if paired vs someone else in an attempt to get team points. Players will join with no intention of playing just to try to get their teammates a bye.

b. As Nico said many players will say they have to leave and ask for a flip loss and then return and play within minutes.

c. Finally, having a flip system allows people to pick and choose who they play, say I always lose to Sui_Slush because in T2 he plays my decks worst matchup. To avoid losing rating to him I just make up a story and lose by flips. That IS rating fraud and its something that happens constantly.

2. By only allowing flips to happen if the players are unable to connect we fix the above problems and help to return flips to its original purpose.

Flips was originally meant to be used ONLY if people couldn't connect so they wouldn't lose rating, it wasn't meant to be used to protect teammates rating, etc. All this that has been happening has always been against the rules, just something the league turned a blind eye to.

Of course, just because the league implements the policy of returning flips to only be in the case of people being unable to connect doesn't mean that cheating will stop. Players will try to cheat the system and I'm sure some will succeed for awhile. Just like any other program there are loopholes and some people will try to abuse them.

However, that is not a good enough reason to not implement the rule. As I said before, just because some people will break a law doesn't mean that we shouldn't have it. Those people that cheat will eventually be caught and punished for rating fraud. The majority of the league will follow the rule and as a result teams will stop abusing the flips policy for points and players will stop using the flip program to pick and choose their opponents thus making the rating and team systems more fair.

To combat what Craze has repeately said: The new flips DOES solve the rating and team points abuse. Yes, Craze is correct in saying that it does still leave loopholes that people can try to abuse. Just like any other policy would. The two ways I see people could get around it:

1. Teammates could just concede to each other and lose rating and still load up minis. This is not a loophole! This makes the system team/rating system be the way it was intented to be, if you lose you lose rating. Loading up a mini with teammates is legal, flipping to avoid losing rating is not.

2. A player could claim they were unable to connect and force a flip. This is a problem but I think it will not be a widespread one. For one if a player does that often eventually someone will notice and look into it. If when Nico and Neo review flips and see that it always happens between teammates then they can investigate deeper and I'm sure the person will be caught. That or an opponent will complain because they think they are lying, a judge will notice a flip report often from that player, etc.

Obviously, this flip program does help to solve the problems that it was intended to. It aims to stop rating fraud and it does just that, by making it harder to do and easier to track (since the overall number of flips will be much lower). Those fighting against this rule (for the most part) don't understand the issue, want to keep abusing the system, or have ulterior motives.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, I'm pissed. Why Because I had wrote this big awsome response. And right before I finished my comp froze. GAY.

But don't worry cause I'm gonna do it again. It will just take a little while longer for you to read it.

Quote:
Fraud: something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage


I hate this definition, because it lacks what truely is wrong about fraud and what makes somthing fraud.

I went to dictionary.com and found a actual definition of it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fraud wrote:
fraud - deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.


I bolded the part Neo's definition lacked. With this we need an example of actual downright rating fraud so I present to you, the jury, Example 1:

Example 1
Jack, Jake, and John play each other alot in single matches. And it seems out of pure skill/luck Jack always wins and thus has gotten a large rating and plenty of invites to the invintational. What you don't know is that, Jack, Jake, and John are the SAME PERSON under 3 different accounts.
This is rating fraud.

Rating fraud that happens daily thanks to multiaccounting a problem ML has not fixed. (proof would be guys like Iamdanny and Vizion_15 both constantly getting back into #magic-league)

Now we know the actual definition of fraud, we can look at Neo's examples with more of a understanding then he'd like us too.
I understand his first example was errored so I edited it for him.

Neo's 1st Example wrote:

Nico is paired against Neo in round 1 of the T2 APPR Trial. They connect and play game one. Nico discovers his deck is playing his worst match up, and he will definitely lose, so he reports than he won 2-1 via flips to his TC.
The TC Marks the match and pairs round 2, while everyone continues to play. After the match, Neo discovers he was cheated and shows logs. While Neo is able to get his points for round 1 back, he is unable to continue in the tournament.


Yes, this is ratings fraud. However, whos fault is this really? Nico or the TC.

A few weeks ago I reported I lost a mini to Gerrardfo or Noremac(can't remember which) in flips. They told me to have my oppenent confirm this. Joking around I asked them why I would lie about losing. With a serious tone, they replied: "its policy"
So, if its policy, to have a TC check with both players before reporting a flip, and the TC does his job, how could your example happen? Quite simple: it couldn't. Thus your example is better suited for what is judge incompetence rather then what is rating fraud.

[quote"Neo's 2nd Example"] Nico and Neo are on Team Admin. They are paired vs. each other in round 4 of a T2 MWS Trial. Nico knows that if he drops, he will keep his points and be able to get a ratings invite to the T2 MWS Master. Neo however would need to move on in the tournament, and win his Invites, because his rating is not as good. For this reason, Nico will ‘concede via flips to Neo. Now both players are able to get T2 MWS Master invites, which kicks out someone who would have legally earned their invite. This is ratings fraud. [/quote]

This is not rating fraud. Its an agreement between the two players that can not guarentee Neo the invite nor can screw anyone else in that trial out of the even possibility of getting the invite. Their is nothing unfair nor is their any trickery or deciet here. Your example is again flawed.

Quote:
Nico, Neo, GFO, and Koen enter a T2 APPR Max 8 Tournament. Nico is paired vs. Neo, GFO and Koen both play non-team members. Nico gives Neo the concede via flips, which is essentially a bye. In the next round Neo is paired vs. Koen. Koen does the same thing, and now Neo has made it to the finals where he can possibly get ratings boost, but also free team points, without ever having played a match. This is ratings fraud.


This is rating's fraud. And is a sad abuse of flips. But the statistics say you can't stop this, and your new rule definitly won't.
Say we take your new rule into effect and repeat your example with the same pairings.
Now, you can back me up on this, the average apprentice player is walled. And nico has made it stone clear that no one is EVER entitled to have to use any other program in apprentice minis besides Apprentice itself.
So odds are Nico and Neo are both walled, and without being forced to use hamachi, they can stroll into #flips and do the same thing randomly.
Round 2: Koen V.,S. random team admin member. Koen could host r1, but so could his oppenent, and for some reason he can't now. Sadly this does actually happen to people. between general internet issues to just plain evil lags, connecting can often be stopped one moment and back on another. And because his oppenent hosted he can now flip against random teammember sending himself or his team member to the finals.

Guess what, your rule didn't stop them. They got around it. No, your rule stops one thing and one thing only. The ability for 2 teammembers who randomly get paired against each other, to decide which moves on to the finals. This situation can happen in your example of just randomly with 2 guys not trying to abuse flips. And more importently thanks to the competitive level of teams nowadays players are often expected to earn team points fast. Meaning its nice when your teammate with higher points can give you the win helping you earn teampoints more for yourself. And not hurting anyone else period.

Another example that it stops is, the random rogue testers who could give less about their rating and because of this have like a 1330 rating. They don't care about their oppenents getting flip losses so why not give them? It doesn't hurt them and doesn't randomly fuck some poor +1700 rating by losing 50 points.

Both examples do not hurt the league. They are not unfair, and they are not deceatful or tricky. But they are benefits to playing online compared to IRL where you play maybe one tourny a week and have that entire time scheduled a week in advance.

Quote:
We are sorry if this new change inconveniences those of you who have not experienced ratings fraud yet, but those of you who have seen and experienced it, I am sure that you appreciate the rules being put into effect. The league will eventually have a better method, but for now this is the best. A lot of people can put down on us directors and managers, saying that we only use our time to destroy the league, but if that were true, I do not think we still would be here, stronger than ever, over 5 years later.


On the contrary more players have complained about this rule. Ironically the more active the players the more likely this will hurt them.

I told you to give me a good reason for this rule, you offered these 3 examples, each that have been given in the news article and each that I have already and did again disprove as even remotely being helped by this rule.

You want a suggestion? Appeal this rule. And open your mailbox, because you probably can find alot of rules in there that actually need fixing.

Quote:
If all you say is entering a random factor then please explain to me how lying to get a flip to prevent rating lose is NOT concidered rating fraud. When you start luying you are already commiting rating fraud and abuse the flip option.


It is rating fraud. But its not tricking anyone. As your full aware, BOTH players must agree to a flip win or loss. Meaning, the other player who their leing to must agree to let them take a flip loss and thus if they do it and get tricked, are at fault themselves. I personally do not let people take flip losses for random events that may happen during a mini. I deem it bad luck, but doesn't mean that I shouldn't have the choice of letting my oppenent not take a point deduction, because it certainly doesn't effect anyone else.

Quote:
Your argument that "it used to be OK" to misuse the flip system is not valid, since it was never intended to be used the way it was being used. It has always been wrong to use it that way, but its now that its become so prevelant that we have decided to make it known we will be actively seeking those who misuse the system, and actions will be taken toward those who are found guilty.


I want to point out 2 things here. And 1 I already pointed out earlier. And that is that the few things that actually aren't right and are abusing the flip system aren't stopped by your rule. But the tactics that in no way desribe "fraud" and that are actually very fair are being destroyed by your rule.
Your arguement was that it should have never been allowed, I respond with: WHY THE HELL NOT!? Who does it hurt? And I refer to the 2 examples of good flip benefits I listed just before this. You demand that good things be destroyed then say that your helping the league?

nico wrote:
Ok, I see people are very upset about the change in policy. I think this change is more reflective of the way we envisioned the league when we first started it something like 4 or 5 years ago, namely a place for people to play magic online for free, and test eachother's strength in a competitive though friendly manner.
To keep it so people would be able to finish their tourneys we soon realized we would have to take into account the fact that some people would have issues connecting to eachother. We therefore made the flip rules, and always have intended it to be used as a tool to keep tourneys progressing.
As usual people are always looking for a way to beat the system and found a way to bend the system to their use. Although the practice of conceding to flips was not against the rules as written, they certainly were against the spirit of the flip rules as we imagined them in the first place.


Finally I get to hear from nico.
Your point here is what you meant for flips to be is not what they are now. Yes, this is true, but so remains true about pretty much everything. You say that "Gentlemenly flips" are an abuse of the system. I ask how is somthing that does not hurt anyone an abuse of the system. Neither player gains any points and the team would have gotten the points anyway.
You say that its unfair, that one guy gets a flip and has to pair against someone who played their way up. I say you have just defined a bye. Its luck, thats what single elimination Magic-league minis are. Luck. Its bad luck to have to flip, and its bad luck to be paired V.S. your teammate and its bad luck that an emergency may happen forcing you to leave. However all of these are fixed by flips.
Just because your original purpose for flips does not cover this, doesn't mean it shouldn't and because you refuse to eliminate flips totally by demanding players find a way to host or not play in tournies, the league automatically can not resemble real life. And because it can't certain exceptions such as agreed flips should be allowed to help ease the flip process as a whole.

Quote:
while on the other hand stimulating people to play by punishing the non-playing people will in fact increase the activity on the league, and will allow people to hone their skills and decks to an even higher level, so they can have a bigger impact on the real life magic scene.


You couldn't be more wrong. This act makes teams less likely to enter the same minis s their teammates and because minis are limited to a judges will, we face less of an activity rate.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noremac wrote:

1. Whether you choose to admit it or not there HAS been a problem with people abusing the flips program. This has been done in multiple ways:

a. Teams putting all 5 players in a mini and just flipping the result out if paired to a teammate or conceding via flips if paired vs someone else in an attempt to get team points. Players will join with no intention of playing just to try to get their teammates a bye.

b. As Nico said many players will say they have to leave and ask for a flip loss and then return and play within minutes.

c. Finally, having a flip system allows people to pick and choose who they play, say I always lose to Sui_Slush because in T2 he plays my decks worst matchup. To avoid losing rating to him I just make up a story and lose by flips. That IS rating fraud and its something that happens constantly.


A) not being fixed by this rule. Stop using this retard example.

B) Not an issue period because it was a choice from the oppenent, if your not smart enough to tell your oppenent to go to hell and demand a match or him to concede in a non-flip match: You don't deserve the points.

C) This is example B with an actual example, and again I repeat is Sui_slushes fault for letting you do it.

Quote:
2. By only allowing flips to happen if the players are unable to connect we fix the above problems and help to return flips to its original purpose.

Flips was originally meant to be used ONLY if people couldn't connect so they wouldn't lose rating, it wasn't meant to be used to protect teammates rating, etc. All this that has been happening has always been against the rules, just something the league turned a blind eye to.

Of course, just because the league implements the policy of returning flips to only be in the case of people being unable to connect doesn't mean that cheating will stop. Players will try to cheat the system and I'm sure some will succeed for awhile. Just like any other program there are loopholes and some people will try to abuse them.

However, that is not a good enough reason to not implement the rule. As I said before, just because some people will break a law doesn't mean that we shouldn't have it. Those people that cheat will eventually be caught and punished for rating fraud. The majority of the league will follow the rule and as a result teams will stop abusing the flips policy for points and players will stop using the flip program to pick and choose their opponents thus making the rating and team systems more fair.


I love how you and nico have resulted in repeating yourselves over and over in an effort to pretend what you said was not already proven wrong elsewhere.
This is exactly what republicans do. You should be ashamed.
I already responded to this on the news article. And somewhat in my responce to nico. You want a responce, check those. However being as you didn't bother reading them then, I doubt you will now.

Quote:
1. Teammates could just concede to each other and lose rating and still load up minis. This is not a loophole! This makes the system team/rating system be the way it was intented to be, if you lose you lose rating. Loading up a mini with teammates is legal, flipping to avoid losing rating is not.


Or because the majority of ML players are walled, they could just refuse to use hamachi/MWS and flip legally and do it all randomly. I belive I explained this in more detail in a past post countering Nico's third example. Check there.

Quote:
2. A player could claim they were unable to connect and force a flip. This is a problem but I think it will not be a widespread one. For one if a player does that often eventually someone will notice and look into it. If when Nico and Neo review flips and see that it always happens between teammates then they can investigate deeper and I'm sure the person will be caught. That or an opponent will complain because they think they are lying, a judge will notice a flip report often from that player, etc.


Won't become widespread? Its already fucking widespread!!!
Faking being walled as been used long before you or I came to this league.
They don't even check their email, what the hell makes you think their gonna review #flips logs.

Quote:
Obviously, this flip program does help to solve the problems that it was intended to. It aims to stop rating fraud and it does just that, by making it harder to do and easier to track (since the overall number of flips will be much lower). Those fighting against this rule (for the most part) don't understand the issue, want to keep abusing the system, or have ulterior motives.


Obvoiously it doesn't help but its nice that you just massively accused those who actually understand whats going on(rather then ramble on, like you) of either abuse of flips or altieror motives. Geez Noremac, whats with you and false accusations lately.
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Neo



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze, read this next line with an open mind please.

"Conceeding to a teammate so that you can decide who moves on in a tournament" is legal, and it is not ratings fraud.

What is?

"Conceeding to a teammate so that you can decide who moves on in a tournament, while making sure ratings are unnafected" is ratings fraud.

You can still decide who you want in a team to move on, they simply lose or gain a few points. Is that really something to get so worked up over? If so, too bad because thats the way the system does work, and should have always been working.

____

as far as "open your mailbox" ..there are currently 0 unread mails in my department, so im sorry but I am up to date on concerns.

_____

Your definition is no different from mine. Fraud is gaining an unfair advantage, and by allowing someone to conceed a match via flips, so that they do not take ratings point drop is giving them an unfair advantage vs. players who lose and do take ratings point drops.

_____

you are right in that a player is not forced to use Hamachi, however if it is discovered that players are able to connect via appr ot mws (both players) and they chose not too because they are on a team, it becomes my concern. Not yours.
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indie



Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the policy is bad. the cases you mantioned are far more rare than these cases:

1. indie is playing neo, they cannot seem to connect. indie knows he entered the mini for 1 round only due to a lack of time. indie doesnt find any point in winning a flip and then dropping, causing both neo to get kicked out, and a nico to get a bye in next round (which obv suck), so he wants to give neo the flip win and make everyone happy. unfortunatly, now he cannot. he wins flip and drops, neo wasted 15 mins for nothing and has to wait forever till another mini shows. nico wins first round, gets an annoying bye on second round, waits 40 mins only to discover 3rd round match has dropped also.

2. indie is playing neo, they cannot seem to connect. neo is the TC, and indie, who TC'd before, wants to allow neo to play on, instead of sit next to the computer for the next 2 hours and do nothing. indie wants to concede flips to neo, unfortunatly he cannot. indie wins flip, neo has to sit there and TC the damn mini for the next 90 most useless minutes of his poor lives.

I can ensure you that these cases are far more common than the ones you mantioned.
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