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Amazing piece on the so-called War in Iraq.


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kendiggy



Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 441
Location: not here

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:44 pm    Post subject: Amazing piece on the so-called War in Iraq. Reply with quote

I'll just post the entire email my friend sent me:

Quote:
Letter from a soldier, Pat Tillman's Brother. This is the most honest and direct characterization of this war and the pitiful era we have entered. This is by far the most moving piece I have read in a long time.

Save it, Print it, and send it on. History will thank you.

For the love of what this country has stood for, for the past 216 years. Don't give it up.

David

Stay informed
Huffington Post

Keep in touch

Quote:
After Pat’s Birthday
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/
Posted on Oct 19, 2006
By Kevin Tillman
Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.


It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we got out.
Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.



Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.
Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.
Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.
Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.
Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.
Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.
Somehow torture is tolerated.
Somehow lying is tolerated.
Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.
Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.
Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.
Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.
Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.
Somehow this is tolerated.
Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.
Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.


Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman

See what I mean...

If you want to do something, here are some activist orginizations that are on point, and powerful.

MoveOn.org http://www.moveon.org/
I gave them $50 for the election

True Majority http://www.truemajority.com/
They don't send out many emails, sign up and sign their petitions.

Act For Change http://www.actforchange.com/
They take action on more issues, and send out more petitions.


Absolutely amazing. Every American out there should agree with me.
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kendiggy



Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 441
Location: not here

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I don't know how this got posted twice...
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MTGFAN911



Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its a great piece. But its nothing we dont already know. Democracy, is and always be democracy, and as an american we cant do anything to change it for 2 years.?? Why???

Because you can impeach clinton for being a little "happy" making love not war

But you cant impeach Bush for being a moron and starting wars to keep his ratings up, and for oil or whatever the ?/sdklkfla his reasons are there was no reason to go to war with Iraq.

Besides if you put bush on trial before the grand jury, and he testified that he had no clue what was going on. Wouldnt you believe him Razz.

So america will continue to be a bully, and everyone else will continue to suffer Bush's childness.

Will a democrat solve the problems america has??

probably not but anythings better than the rich christians who make decisions based on whos paying them the most money.
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MTGFAN911



Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woops, Smile said that wrong. I mean all the rich christians with poles up their asses. No mean to offend you, Im aethist but alot of family and friends are christian so i don't think their all like that Razz.

Was insulting a paticular group of them, not christians in general.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djww19 wrote:
Well, we went into Iraq with the information we had at the time. Saddam was a possible threat, so we nullified it. Yes, looking back on it it was a bad call, but we've allready committed and pulling back now would only cause more problems in the future IMO. If we leave today, that accomplishes nothing from what we went there for. I'd give it maybe a month after we leave that they turn back to a Dictator.

Good piece, just no new information, like Fan said before.


No matter how long we stay there, the same result is gonna happen in the end: 5 seconds after we leave their gonna take back the country and everythings gonna go to hell. Remind me of somthing, who stormed across the seas and forced us into a democracy back in the 1600s? Oh wait, no one did. We did it all by ourselves, why? Because we wanted it bad enough, and if Iraq actually cared they're wouldn't be any reason to be over there right now. But no, we have to baby them teaching them out to manage themselves. Its bullshit, definitly being that we need to worry about ourselves far more then them.
Your right, if we leave now they will be taken back over, but maybe thats just what was meant to happen.

Quote:
i could be wrong, but presidents don't send the nation to war. last i checked, congress does. are you saying the big bad president who has men held without censure and tortured is worse somehow than the big bad dictator who complicitly with his sons raped, tortured, held without censure, subjugated and attempted genocide on his people?


Actually it goes both ways, but yea when our congress is full of Republicans its pretty easy for the president to do whatever the hell he wants.
Oh and for your second question...
Bush > Saddam: but wait wasn't saddam removed from power like 4 years ago?

Quote:
edit: forgive me, i spoke out of turn. i forgot to mention our president's hatred of minorities, the poor, and the elderly. his calling up of a category five hurricane from the bowels of the south atlantic was completely uncalled for. that was inexcusable excess and abuse of presidential authority. Rolling Eyes


someone please quote me as to who the hell blamed katrina on Bush...
cause otherwise that was just a stupid random comment.
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Buffalo_Wing



Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i vote for nader!
1!!!!
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ant900



Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2525
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: just a thought... Reply with quote

cernicolo wrote:
i could be wrong, but presidents don't send the nation to war. last i checked, congress does.

true but he IS the commander in chief, meaning he can send troops over there without it being declaired "a war" which IIRC he did that before it was declaired a war. I belive it was vietnam where the same thing happened...

Quote:

There is nothing that has come out about Bush himself doing anything illegal, so your "LAWL IMPEACH BUSH HE IS A CRIMINAL" are just silly.

so wire tapping american house holds with out congres consent isn't illegal?
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MTGFAN911



Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton was impeached for PERJURY. He lied under oath about his affair. The affair itself is not a crime.

There is nothing that has come out about Bush himself doing anything illegal, so your "LAWL IMPEACH BUSH HE IS A CRIMINAL" are just silly.

Oh, and it's not the "so-called" war with Iraq. I'm pretty sure that the war is real.

yeah, ive heard it before, besides I could care less if clinton lied.

I cant count the times presidents have lied with a calculator.

The choice to impeach clinton, was obviously and will always be, the republicans taking advantage of the situation, and attacking him at a personal level it had nothing to do with the safety or security of our country and had nothing to do with Clintons affair or his "lying" about it.

Plus you dont remember the trial? They had no witnesses until the Rep. Bill McCollum decided to "Examine" little Monica. They had her alone, they could have fed her anuything they wanted.

there is a noticeable shift in what the American public deems important in their elected leaders. People are apparently no longer so concerned about the personal lives of their public officials, especially if they think these officials are doing a fairly good job in the offices in which they were elected.

I think this is a good thing. Do you feel it is necessary to know about the sexual and personal life of your boss? Or of your colleagues? I don't.

America has always been a nation of striving, go-getting perfectionists. That perfectionist streak sometimes extended to being preoccupied with attacking those with 'unsavory' qualities, whether those 'unsavory' qualities were darker skin, religious beliefs, sexual mores, etc.

And now we have Bush, which is a nice little christian boy, with a nice little wife, no affairs and goes around and starts wars to his own benefit and others to keep his ratings up

I know people have lost sons, friends etc in iraq, and you really have to question when something like that hits home if its really important for you to be there???/

I agreed with Afghanistan, actually I wanted to kill Osama Bin Laden so badly, but that was all cause of the hype of 9-11 wasnt it?? Then Iraq came around. I was completely against it, I think it was all about nothing. Sure they had a horrifying government, But whos to say that Bush is the one to solve the worlds problems.

And you say its a war and i totally agree, people die everyday over there. but who are we fighting? Insurgents?? People we already conquered. Iraq doesnt want us there and most americans dont want us there and the rest of the world dont want us there. I say pull the trops and let them fight their own battles, America needs to solve America's problems. AND YES AMERICA HAS PROBLEMS.

end rant.
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not posting this to be disrespectful, but to make sure that none of you are blinded by the bias of this thread and are unaware of the politics of the war in Iraq. I'm going to clarify what in my point of view are vast simplifications if not outright wrong facts used for the sake of an emotional appeal.

"Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that."

Can any reasonable person on the face of this Earth say that the world is NOT a better place with Saddam Hussein out of power? What is going on today in Iraq, while terrible, is NOTHING compared to what Saddan did to his own people. Even if America is there for the wrong reasons, the result is a positive one. And just because we went in for the wrong reasons doesn't mean that we should get out, because that would lead to mass genocide, which once again any reasonable person can agree is a bad thing.

"Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is."

Would someone care to explain this one to me? Because I'm not sure that I completely understand. So we love tyranny and welcome it in our own homeland? Or do we go out and stop injustice from occuring anywhere where the lives of people are at stake?

"Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military."

If our country (and Bush in consequence) wanted to be free to torture alleged terrorists, then why has Bush signed a court system to judge terrorists into effect? I can tell you why - because terrorists are neither here nor there. They are human beings, but they are not protected by the Geneva Convention OR our laws.

"Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground."

Once again I'm going to ask: can any reasonable person honestly say that the world is NOT a better place without Saddam? If you can find such a person, send them to Iraq to fight alongside the Baathist party so they can go back to power and continue to murder and torture their own citizens.

"Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated."

I hope this is not regarding the "war for oil" argument, because that is clearly false. America has not gotten a single barrel of oil from Iraq since the invasion. The war, regardless of what far-left liberals will argue, was NOT for oil, as anyone involved in politics knows.

"Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance."

I'm sorry, I know that this is touching and emotional, but I almost laughed at that. Anyone who is politically informed (such as a political scientist) would be arguing against the factual errors of this letter.

There really is too much for me to attempt to disprove in this letter in one sitting, but I just want to make sure that everyone realizes that I am sympathetic to the lives lost in Iraq, as I myself am from Israel, and a friend of mine died while I was there for vacation during the war. I may have never lost a sibling, and hopefully never will, but I know what a loss is. However, it's hard for me to idly sit by while everything that is said in this letter is taken as truth by everyone reading it - for who would question a soldier's credibility on the war in Iraq? I'm not happy about how the war is being run, and I'm not happy that America is stuck in the position it is now, but Saddam WAS an undeniable threat that had to be removed, and to think he was a threat to us is being selfish. He was a threat first to his people, and America, while not being a world police, should stand for what is right and moral and protect the right of people TO LIVE, wherever it may be. In Iraq, in Bosnia, in Darfur... It makes no difference. Those who (like Ned Lamont) want to pull out of Iraq for the sake of our troops are being selfish. Pulling out now will mean the return of the Baath party to power and genocide. The most viable solution to the problem we have now in Iraq (due to incompetence in running the war, I agree) is to send MORE troops to stabilize the country. As my political science professor says, another 100,000-150,000 is a reasonable number, but a million will get the job done much sooner so that we could hand over control to Iraq itself. I'm sure most of you are unaware, but we are currently going through negotiations on when we can leave. And which side do you think is trying to convince us to stay? THE IRAQI SIDE! We're trying to convince them to LET US LEAVE! How can you say that we have interests in Iraq? We got no oil, we got nothing out of it. We got international recoil and death, that's all we got. So actually instead of condemning our government, out of respect to his late brother the author of the letter should be asking our government to send more troops to get the job done. His brother, God bless him, knew that he was risking his life when he enlisted. So don't let his life go to waste - finish the job! I don't care if you're against the war, why it was started or how it is run, but you would owe it to your brother to finish it. He should not have died in vain. Thank you, Pat Tillman, for your sacrifice. We should NOT let it amount to nothing.


Last edited by Pyrofire14 on Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:58 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not posting this to be disrespectful, but to make sure that none of you are blinded by the bias of this thread and are unaware of the politics of the war in Iraq. I'm going to clarify what in my point of view are vast simplifications if not outright wrong facts used for the sake of an emotional appeal.

"Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that."

Can any reasonable person on the face of this Earth say that the world is NOT a better place with Saddam Hussein? It just evades all logic that what is going on today in Iraq, while terrible, is NOTHING compared to what Saddam did to his own people. Even if America is there for the wrong reasons, the result is a positive one. And just because we went in for the wrong reasons doesn't mean that we should get out, because that would lead to mass genocide, which once again any reasonable person can agree is a bad thing.

"Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is."

Would someone care to explain this one to me? Because I'm not sure that I completely understand. So we love tyranny and welcome it in our own homeland? Or do we go out and stop injustice from occurring anywhere where the lives of people are at stake?

"Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military."

If our country (and Bush in consequence) wanted to be free to torture alleged terrorists, then why has Bush signed a court system to judge terrorists into effect? I can tell you why - because terrorists are neither here nor there. They are human beings, but they are not protected by the Geneva Convention OR our laws.

"Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground."

Once again I'm going to ask: can any reasonable person honestly say that the world is NOT a better place without Saddam? If you can find such a person, send them to Iraq to fight alongside the Baathist party so they can go back to power and continue to murder and torture their own citizens.

"Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated."

I hope this is not regarding the "war for oil" argument, because that is clearly false. America has not gotten a single barrel of oil from Iraq since the invasion. The war, regardless of what far-left liberals will argue, was NOT for oil, as anyone involved in politics knows.

"Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance."

I'm sorry, I know that this is touching and emotional, but I almost laughed at that. Anyone who is politically informed (such as a political scientist) would be arguing against the factual errors of this letter.

There really is too much for me to attempt to disprove in this letter in one sitting, but I just want to make sure that everyone realizes that I am sympathetic to the lives lost in Iraq, as I myself am from Israel, and a friend of mine died while I was there for vacation during the war. I may have never lost a sibling, but I know what a loss is. However, it's hard for me to idly sit by while everything that is said in the letter is taking as truth by everyone reading it - for who would question a soldier's credibility on the war in Iraq? I'm not happy about how the war is being run, and I'm not happy that America is stuck in the position it is now, but Saddam WAS an undeniable threat that had to be removed, and to think he was a threat to us is being selfish. He was a threat first to his people, and America, while not being a world police, should stand for what is right and moral and protect the right of people TO LIVE, wherever it may be. In Iraq, in Bosnia, in Darfur... It makes no difference. Those who (like Ned Lamont) want to pull out of Iraq for the sake of our troops are being selfish. Pulling out now will mean the return of the Baath party to power and genocide. The most viable solution to the problem we have now in Iraq (due to incompetence in running the war, I agree) is to send MORE troops to stabilize the country. As my political science professor says, another 100,000-150,000 is a reasonable number, but a million will get the job done much sooner so that we could hand over control to Iraq itself. I'm sure most of you are unaware, but we are currently going through negotiations on when we can leave. And which side do you think is trying to convince us to stay? THE IRAQI SIDE! We're trying to convince them to LET US LEAVE! How can you say that we have interests in Iraq? We got no oil, we got nothing out of it. We got international recoil and death, that's all we got. So actually instead of condemning our government, out of respect to his late brother the author of the letter should be asking our government to send more troops to get the job done. His brother, God bless him, knew that he was risking his life when he enlisted. So don't let his life go to waste - finish the job! I don't care if you're against the war, why it was started or how it is run, but you would owe it to your brother to finish it. He should not have died in vain. Thank you, Pat Tillman, for your sacrifice. We should NOT let it amount to nothing.
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, sorry for the double post.

Dr_Moo wrote:
I think the American government as a whole is completely hopeless at this point, and I do not see a light at the end of the tunnel.


I got depressed a few weeks back when I thought about how the people run America. The average person is not fit for such a task, it seems. However, as easy as it is to give up on one's state, the right thing to do is to, well, DO something. At the very least become an informed citizen and vote correctly. But if you really want to make a difference, become involved in politics yourself. Run for office. Manage a campaign. Just do something more than sit back and criticize. That's the easiest, and least productive thing to do. This isn't aimed at you, Dr_Moo, just as a general message to everyone living in America and as upset as I am with the way things are today.
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MTGFAN911



Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im confused pyro14 who are you voting for this election out of personal curiosity?

If our country (and Bush in consequence) wanted to be free to torture alleged terrorists, then why has Bush signed a court system to judge terrorists into effect? I can tell you why - because terrorists are neither here nor there. They are human beings, but they are not protected by the Geneva Convention OR our laws.


writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate to a prison official ordering that an inmate be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he should be released from custody

A person MUST be RIGHTFULLY ACCUSED in order to be held, instead of arresting and holding people on a whim.

Sure the Geneva convention doesn't protect Terrorists, But just cause a person has the slightest chance of being a "terrorist" doesnt mean we should be able to jail them without proof of some kind. This is obvious and you should keep that in mind. countless of civilians in Iraq and some other places, but mostly Iraq have been arrested and held, with no proof etc of being a terrorist or insurgent. What if they threw you in jail just cause they thought your a terrorist, interogate harrass you and then release you after 3 years saying sorry we were mistaken. How would you feel???

also the prison stuff isnt Bush's fault, but since you mentioned it i decided to rant about it
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MTGFAN911 wrote:
im confused pyro14 who are you voting for this election out of personal curiosity?

If our country (and Bush in consequence) wanted to be free to torture alleged terrorists, then why has Bush signed a court system to judge terrorists into effect? I can tell you why - because terrorists are neither here nor there. They are human beings, but they are not protected by the Geneva Convention OR our laws.


writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate to a prison official ordering that an inmate be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he should be released from custody

A person MUST be RIGHTFULLY ACCUSED in order to be held, instead of arresting and holding people on a whim.

Sure the Geneva convention doesn't protect Terrorists, But just cause a person has the slightest chance of being a "terrorist" doesnt mean we should be able to jail them without proof of some kind. This is obvious and you should keep that in mind. countless of civilians in Iraq and some other places, but mostly Iraq have been arrested and held, with no proof etc of being a terrorist or insurgent. What if they threw you in jail just cause they thought your a terrorist, interogate harrass you and then release you after 3 years saying sorry we were mistaken. How would you feel???

also the prison stuff isnt Bush's fault, but since you mentioned it i decided to rant about it


I actually cannot vote yet, as I am not a citizen of the United States.

Regarding the writ of habeas corpus - Lincoln suspended it in a time of war, and few complain about that. Don't forget, America IS at war now, and on more than one front, even if it is not a physical one. We are living in a time when we have to take drastic measures within our own country that was founded upon the ideals of freedom and natural rights to protect our lives. It's a difficult sacrifice to make, but I would rather have some of my liberties suspended than have another 9-11esque catastrophe occur in America. If you have nothing to hide, then you should not be worried about the government tapping your phone, or even throwing you into jail in an attempt to protect the lives of its citizens. There are people that argue that this is a step down a road that will lead to the deprivation of all of our rights, but there is 0 evidence to support this. Instead, historically speaking, when America has suspended the rights of its citizens, it always gave them back when the threat they were fighting was no longer present. Example: treatment of Japanese during World War II. Not only did it end, but reparations were paid afterwards. I just don't see this as really being an issue.
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MTGFAN911



Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering what side you would vote on in the upcoming elections, even if you cant vote.

"""We are living in a time when we have to take drastic measures within our own country that was founded upon the ideals of freedom and natural rights to protect our lives. It's a difficult sacrifice to make, but I would rather have some of my liberties suspended than have another 9-11esque catastrophe occur in America
""

Seriously too me it sounds like your brainwashed.

And not to mention i wasn't even talking about American rights when I mentioned this. I was talking about the rights of the civilians of OTHER COUNTRIES who we think we can imprison without cause please read the post.

When it comes to American rights, I have yet to feel my rights violated except for when republicans question the right of abortion and stem cell research dont even get me started on those topics as I have loved ones who would benefit from stem cell research and am a advocate of womans rights. They can search my house, phones etc all they want, all theyll hear is a little bit of phone sex with my girlfriend and maybe a couple rants but nothing dangerous.

It hasnt been proved to me and I dont believe that Bush has violated personal rights of AMERICAN civilians yet, but if he was to do something like that I dont know how you could defend him it was unconstitutional.
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MTGFAN911 wrote:


Seriously too me it sounds like your brainwashed.



I'm sorry, but I don't see your logic. What makes you say that I am brainwashed, and if so, then by whom? I think that any reasonable person would rather suffer some momentary restrictions that most likely will not even affect their freedom that they take for granted anyways than die. As a leader, I see my #1 duty to my people as that of the freedom to LIVE. If I don't protect the lives of my people, I am a failure as a leader.

And I did read your post, it's just that your logic is difficult to follow. I have already said that Bush has signed into effect the court system to judge suspected terrorists. So if you're not a terrorist and we capture you, then you should be promptly released and have reparations handed to you. However, since we have multiple intelligence systems active on tracking terrorists, such an issue should be rare if at all an issue.

Stucco: I apologize, somehow I missed your post.

stucco wrote:
First of all, you are making a HUGE error with that statement. Tillman died in Afghanistan, a cause in which few would argue against. Afghanistan vs Iraq are 2 very different wars.

Second of all, I MUST ask you this... how many dead soldiers does it take to validify a war? How many dead soldiers does it take for their deaths to mean something?

You seem to know the catch phrases of pro-war propaganda, so you MUST understand the implications


I'm sorry for my mistake, I'm just very tired. But it still stands for all the troops who have died in Iraq.

But I don't seem to understand your question. I'm not using the deaths of soldiers to justify a war (validify isn't a word, by the way) - I think we were completely justified in removing Saddam Hussein from power, I just disagree with how we went about it militarily. But I think on an emotional level (which is what the letter was), a soldier who dies for something would probably wish for their death to have meant something. I know that if I would die fighting in a war I believed in, I wouldn't want my country to withdraw from the conflict just because they don't want to lose any more troops. I probably should never have said that bit, but as the letter was an emotional one I thought it was worth mentioning. The war, in my eyes, is plenty justified by the fact that it removed Saddam from power. That in itself is enough for me. No one could deny that the world is a better place without him in power.
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