Is playing like that being cheap?

tomtom · Guest

Today I played casual apprentice against someone. During his turn he taps out and plays consume spirt then I played remand to counter his spell. After that he says that he played consume spirit for 0 and recasted it. He says that I never asked him how much is he paying for and claims that it's a FIENT. Isn't that just being cheap? Anyways, we had a long argument and here's the logs:

<Viperlock> Why would I Consume for zero? You were advertising that you held the Remand in hand.
<Viperlock> Instead of being so anxious, type "how much?" before you cast it.
<Viperlock> And never, ever, imply that your opponent is cheating when you mess up.
<tomtom_12> u're just being a cheap @$$ thats all. If u're not then u're a dumb@$$ cause no one would consume for 0
<tomtom_12> and btw u're not responding when i was gonna win on my turn and that's a cheap way to make your opponent disconnect
<Viperlock> You called me a cheater.
<Viperlock> I will always walk away when my opponent calls me a cheater.
<Viperlock> You are wrong about being cheap. I knew you held a counter.
<Viperlock> It is your job to ask 'how much' before jumping.
<Viperlock> Be patient, play correctly, win more.
<tomtom_12> i never said the word cheater i just called u a cheap@$$
<tomtom_12> and it's quite obvious that u're gonna tap out to cast that
<tomtom_12> admit it, u're just being cheap
<tomtom_12> and u're not a cheater
<tomtom_12> just cheap
<Viperlock> You targetted the spell. You did not ask what the variable X value even was. I don't think you can assume anything,
<Viperlock> I wish you would realize that I am trying to help you.
<tomtom_12> I mean this is just testing. It's not like we're playing in a tourney. and even in a tourney I won't play like that
<tomtom_12> and yes i learned my lesson for not asking and this would never happen again when i play against someone cheap
<Viperlock> It has nothing to do with playing 'cheap.' It has to do with "paying attention to the game..."
<tomtom_12> there's something called logic. who would play a consume for 0? you always assume that u're opponent taps out to play that. u're just being those kinds of ppl ( oh i flipped a coin and it's touched one of my cards so this doesn't count)
<Viperlock> Why wouldn't I?
<Viperlock> Tell me why I would even HAVE TO DECIDE until you asked me?
<Viperlock> If you remand, I cast it again for the remaining mana.
<Viperlock> You. need. to. ask. before. you. do. anything.
<Viperlock> The priority is not going to pass.
<Viperlock> There is no race.
<Viperlock> I cannot suddenly pull my spell away.
<tomtom_12> that x casting cost is paid when u play the spell. you can't wait for u opponent to see if he or she lets it resolve then u pay the x cost
<tomtom_12> so it's means that it's already decided when u play the spell
<tomtom_12> u tap out and play the spell
<tomtom_12> and i just countered it
<tomtom_12> and if u're gonna play it for 0 say so as u play the spell
<Viperlock> Mana
<Viperlock> stays
<Viperlock> in
<Viperlock> the
<Viperlock> pool
<Viperlock> X can be ANY value.
<tomtom_12> when
<tomtom_12> u
<tomtom_12> play
<Viperlock> Even zero.
<tomtom_12> the spell
<Viperlock> When you ask.
<Viperlock> Then I will tell you.
<tomtom_12> x is paid when u play it
<Viperlock> Wrong answer.
<Viperlock> Please go ask.
<Viperlock> I can make X any amount I wish.
<tomtom_12> same thing from mtgo
<tomtom_12> u play x for a spell
<Viperlock> Regardless of the mana in my pool.
<tomtom_12> and it's played
<Viperlock> Type this please: 'how much?'
<Viperlock> Try it.
<tomtom_12> don't u understand? u MUST play the X cost AS u play the spell
<Viperlock> I did.
<tomtom_12> u're not WAITING for u're opponent's answer
<Viperlock> How much did I pay?
<Viperlock> I did.
<tomtom_12> then u pay
<Viperlock> How much did I pay?
<Viperlock> How much did I pay?
<Viperlock> Answer: I paid zero.
<tomtom_12> u NEVER said about paying X
<Viperlock> Why would you counter a zero point Consume Spirit??
<tomtom_12> u just tap out
<tomtom_12> and play the spell
<Viperlock> I added mana to my mana pool.
<tomtom_12> and wait for opponent to respond
<Viperlock> This is perfectly fine.
<tomtom_12> and when u opponent counters it
<tomtom_12> u say u pay 0
<Viperlock> You jumped at an empty spell.
<Viperlock> Why would you do this?
<Viperlock> Seems kinda pointless to me...
<Viperlock> I say "boo," and you jump.
<tomtom_12> because i let u being CHEAP
<Viperlock> I was never cheap.
<tomtom_12> remember I LET u be cheap
<tomtom_12> that was just cheap
<Viperlock> You most ceratinly did not.
<Viperlock> I casted the spell for less than the full mana.
<tomtom_12> why didn't u say u play 0 as the play the spell?
<tomtom_12> pay*
<tomtom_12> U're supposed to say how much u pay
<Viperlock> I said it as soon as you let me.
<Viperlock> At my first chance.
<Viperlock> You countered immediately.
<tomtom_12> because i'm assumming u're tapping out to cast it since on one would pay 0 for a consume spirit
<Viperlock> (Did you know counterspell work better if you cast them REAL FAST??)
<Viperlock> lol
<Viperlock> Before the spell GETS AWAY.
<Viperlock> O_o
<tomtom_12> then what would u do if i let it resolve? I could say u pay for 0 and just take all the mana burn
<tomtom_12> cause u never said anything about the mana ur paying
<Viperlock> I HAD ANOTHER ONE IN MY HAND.
<Viperlock> I WOULD HAVE LEFT THREE MANA OPEN REGARDLESS IN CASE YOU LEAKED.
<tomtom_12> sure u do. and i'll let it resolve cause u payed 0 again
<Viperlock> ANYONE KNOWS THAT.
<Viperlock> You need to ask.
<Viperlock> Before you do anything.
<Viperlock> Make sure everything is clear.
<Viperlock> Never assume.
<tomtom_12> u have to announce X as u play the spell
<Viperlock> ahem
<tomtom_12> that's what i'm tryign to tell u
<Viperlock> [May 11 22:05] <Viperlock> I said it as soon as you let me.
<Viperlock> [May 11 22:05] <Viperlock> At my first chance.
<Viperlock> [May 11 22:05] <Viperlock> You countered immediately.
<Viperlock> ahem
<Viperlock> [May 11 22:05] <Viperlock> I said it as soon as you let me.
<Viperlock> [May 11 22:05] <Viperlock> At my first chance.
<Viperlock> [May 11 22:05] <Viperlock> You countered immediately.
<Viperlock> Make sure everything is clear.
<Viperlock> Never assume.
<Viperlock> Before you do anything.
<tomtom_12> the way u act is just being cheap u're like " NEVER assume " when it very OBVIOUS
<tomtom_12> and if u're gonna leave mana for leak then what on earth would u TAP OUT?
<tomtom_12> huh?
<tomtom_12> cause u wanna take 3 mana burn to purpose?
<tomtom_12> or cause u're just dumb?
<tomtom_12> just admit it, u're just being cheap and being cheap is fine in a TOURNEY but NOT when u play for fun
<tomtom_12> cause on one is gonna ever play u again if u're always like that
<Viperlock> I was not cheap. I did nothing wrong.
<Viperlock> I cast a spell and you were too anxious to see that the first spell was only to pull out a counterspell.
<Viperlock> It was a feint. (Look it up.)
<tomtom_12> yeah sure cause after u see me play a remand u say u pay for 0
<tomtom_12> what if it was a rewind?
<tomtom_12> u burn?
<tomtom_12> and u still haven't answered me yet. Why would u tapout to cast it if you know i'm gonna play mana leak? what don't u leave 3 mana OPEN?

MmmCaesium · Joined: 28 Aug 2004 Posts: 14

I don't think it's necessarily "cheap", but it is exploiting a grey area in the rules, so I wouldn't do it.

Guest · Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject:

_Metallica_ · Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 92

actually, is HE must declare how much is the X of consume spirit, if you gave enough time to declare the X, 3 secons is enough i think then he is on an error, i would rule in your favor if it was my mini.

Re-Venge · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 305

wow, if he said he did it for zero after i remanded, i would say, and u can quote me on this

" dude, you are such a n00b that kicking your ass is neither worth mine nor your time, and you suck at life and at MTG, but mostly at MTG. "
thats when you exit... its not your responsibility to correct other people, if its not in a tournament, and you have no ties to this person, there is no reason to sit there and get fustrated over a rules lawyer who obviously is wrong.

Guest · Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject:

People get away with the gayest shit sometimes. Once I was playing this guy and I kept telling him to play faster since we were in game 1 and he was playing slow and I didn't want to lose on time. So he attacks with a creature and I play Mortify instantly and he pauses for like a minute and I'm like "hurry the fuck up" since it's now about 25 mins. and we are still on game 1. So he's like "before damage?" and I say "Of course" then he ninjistus out Ink-Eyes for the creature. I'm obviously like what the fuck umm during the declare attackers phase obviously. So we goto judges and he gets them to rule that "before damage" means during the declare blockers phase even though I had no possible blocks and there is absolutely zero reason why I would wait till blockers to play Mortify. So I lose the game and the match on time. I know the guy was sitting there planning how to screw me over and he's probobaly used that same trick before, what a bitch way to win a match.

Karma · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 46

it was my understanding that you have to announce X before passing priority. I don't believe your opponent should have to ask you and in this situation I believe it would most likely be ruled based on intent. If he taps all of his mana and plays consume spirit, doesn't announce how much x is and you remand it is aparent that he is putting all his mana in to. You should of just said well if you tapped all your lands and didn't announce a cost than its for 0 because you didn't declare it as for 8 before passing priority Razz

s7 · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 153

It was a casual game... I think after that you just disconnect.

synch987 · Joined: 31 Mar 2006 Posts: 256

its his card, his responsibility, a judge would rule in your favour

also if judges had the authority to punch people in the face over the internet we wouldn't have these problems

Guest · Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:45 am Post subject:

HateYou · Guest

U were the noob in that issue! U must wait until he taps mana.But yes... he should have tapped mana for x before, but how can you say that he wasn´t casting for 0? u must be more patient.

WildCard · Joined: 06 Sep 2004 Posts: 735 Location: Japan

Judges have discression over this. if its obvious that a play was made a certain way, then they can rule thats how it is played.be careful what you say. the "before damage thing" careful what you say. if its OBV he will tap out to cast something then thats what he does. in that case i would rule that X was max mana he tapped. when you cast a spell this is the order it goes in: ANNOUNCE SPELL, including any extra costs and X, then you pay for costs of the spell. he tapped out to play it so i would assume it would be for max, and he is getting out cheap because he did not follow the rules. if nothing was done about this then you can send me all the info at my e-mail address.

Taoofss · Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 308

Superdood · Joined: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 273

Guest · Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 11:01 am Post subject:

being as you have to announce the x when You cast the spell, and you did not, and intentionally gave the impression that you were tapping out for it, he remands a loaded consume spirit. if you got a really nice judge i could possibly see a ruling that if you declared zero, the game would back up to that point, in which case, he would not remand. either way you lose.