The New Ideal

FusionFire · Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 227

Well I had at it and decided that in a big creature control environment.....lets build a creatureless deck. Its based off the Enduring Ideal concept. As far as testing goes, so far ONLY BW Discard can hurt this deck Game 1. Everything else has been beaten without a problem. So heres the list:

1 Persecute
2 Debtors' Knell
3 Confiscate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Ivory Mask
2 Quicken
4 Faith's Fetters
3 Pillory of the Sleepless
4 Wrath of God
4 Telling Time
4 Enduring Ideal
4 Orzhov Signet
4 Dimir Signet
4 Plains
2 Island
4 Godless Shrine
4 Watery Grave
4 Adarkar Wastes
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
2 Orzhova, the Church of Deal

Sideboard
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Pure Intentions
SB: 4 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Mana Leak

The concept is simple...control till Ideal. Then drop Knell and pillory on them. Steal creatures thru confiscate and knell while pinging them with pillory and Church. Quicken is amazing as you do a eot Percecute for white (or green if necessary) to clear out enchantment hate, the on your turn drop Ideal and pull out Zur's. Prevent enchantment hate from getting in hand and your all ready to run them down. The SB should be obvious....So let me know what should go or stay or what not.

And for all the flamers out there....don't knock it till you've tried it.....you'll be surprised. Its won 1 8-man minis and has a great testing run.

Vegantoad · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 44

i like it... i have seen some versions that run other things. to make it more of a "toolbox" sort of deck
like the honden's.... mieshen minds cage genju's among others..
just a thought...

FusionFire · Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 227

genju is not a bad idea especially the white one as i will need life gian for the Zur's. I discarded Mind Cage as often i need to use creatures to kill off my oppenent. So it would hurt me as much as him. As for the hodens, i would need to run each of the black, white and blue for it to be really effective. While the black and white ones are "ok" the blue one puts cards in my hand, which i dont want after the Ideal drops. I need my stuff in the library.

Stucco · Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 561

I've always played Ideal with 1 Peace of Mind and 1-2 Genju of the Realm. The beastliness of that Genju is a great alternate kill condition and P.o.M. gives you a discard outlet and a life source.
Privaledged Position should at the very least be in your sideboard.

pppppp · Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 134

the deck seems solid, and it's nice to see quicken being used well, you could even do an eot ideal and have 2 enchantments before they can react, have you come up against any LD decks?

seli234 · Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 5

this is a fresh take on ideal and i like it. except i would keep red for accel. seething song has saved me so many times. plus form is always a great drop as well.

Vegantoad · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 44

i dunno.. i kinda like pillory and fetters both for their own reasons... pillory stops creatures and still gets you to do dmg to opponent..but fetters is gain life and you can stop other things besides creatures.. i would defenately add genju of the realms..9/14 trample...great win condition...and i would also add atleast one copy of form of the dragon..great defensive card...but makes you weaker to burn..i would also run one copy of priveledge position MD and another SB..but the honden's you might want to consider...and as always..you don't have to run all 5..you can leave out the blue one..and peace of mind is a great idea also...i think a copy of dream leash and copy enchantment would be good also..

just my thoughts

AlexTrebek · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 140

You have a terrible matchup against good form and other creatureless decks. Against good form, they need just two faith's fetters to take out your win conditions. Fetters is infinitely better than the pillory as you don't care about their life total until after you have the lock down.

That and there's a card called mortify in those creature control decks which also hurts you without a Priv. Position out.

Bejeezus · Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 1720 Location: Right Here

Priveleged Position should be at least 1 maindeck, largely due to the popularity of cards like Kami of Ancient Law and Mortify.

The White Honden combos well with Zur's Wierding, and the Black Honden should replace the lone Persecute, because the chances of drawing the Persecute before you get off an Ideal are very slim.

You can probably cut one of the Faith's Fetters for a more desirable enchantment, one such as Genju of the Realm.

~Bejeezus~

FusionFire · Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 227

OK, ill address each idea one at a time:

Genju of the Realms: MY thing with this is the casting cost. As much as the ideal concept works, if its in my hand at ANY point, i have ot hard cast it. Which results in me have to now eithir run tendo ice bridge, diffrent versions of the signets, or Forbbiden Orchard. Now, if i had a way to cycle the card back in to my libaray that would be great.

Hondens: Im still 50/50 on this card. Replacing the lone percecute is possible but i do rather enjoy clearing out all white cards (major enchantment hate) the turn prior to dropping Ideal as then I can drop Zur's and control for the win. The Zur can replace the black one as i can force discarding. The white one i might add to counter the life loss of Zur's

Form of the Dragon: NO way lol, simply no way. Ever since i dropped it the deck has been a thousand times better. im thnking of SBing the enchantment Reverance vrs token/weenie decks.

Privledged Postion MD: Yeah your right TY Very Happy

So thanks for the ideas and keep em comming, and ill keep testing em

PS. Whats the concensus on Telling Time. I'd like to drop all 4 for 3 Diving Tops and 1 more enchantment slot. And alos, what about Diabolic Tutor. Any ideas on that?

OH and Tomb of Urami has replaced church. Something fun about after dropping ideal to control the board and constant swingging with a 5/5 flyier Smile

plus i cans till play lands during epic so if it does get killed, i can make another lol

AlexTrebek · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 140

Genju is a great sideboard against the decks that are sideboarding out their creature removal against you game 2.. at the very least.

FusionFire · Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 227

ok so with some playtesting heres the current list:

1 Persecute
1 Privileged Position
2 Debtors' Knell
3 Confiscate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Ivory Mask
1 Honden of Cleansing Fire
4 Faith's Fetters
4 Annex
3 Wrath of God
4 Telling Time
4 Enduring Ideal
4 Orzhov Signet
4 Dimir Signet
4 Plains
2 Island
4 Godless Shrine
4 Watery Grave
4 Adarkar Wastes
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
2 Tomb of Urami
SB: 2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Pure Intentions
SB: 3 Sacred Ground
SB: 4 Mana Leak

the single percecute is still wokring pre ideal wonders. raondom or not. The white honden has made a few people scoop real quick when combine with Zur, so ty to Bejeezus for that idea.

Now i have found my worst match ups are BW Discard/Control and UR Domain. Domain grabs my lands faster than i can get out Signets and since bosenji comes into play tapped i can't ideal with out getting countered. Hense the SB Mana leaks and Sacred ground. But im looking for a more complete solution. I was thinking stealing their idea. Annex. I can run it MB vrs ANYTHING and help myself. OR run boomerang. Again a good MB card. Opinions? Also....still looking for good enchantments for the deck in general. Also im having problems with untargetable creatures after the IDeal drops. Especially North Star. IDeas?

Zuran · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 4

Form of the Dragon is one possible solution to the untargetable creature problem. Maybe just play 1 sb if you think the deck as a whole is better without it.

Vegantoad · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 44

i was reading the saturday school rulings on the mtg website.and according the the lvl 4 judge.. ideal PUTS
enchantments into play..you do not play them.. and therefore you can confiscate untargetable things..such as kodama of the north tree and other things of that manner.

also a friend of mine runs 3 copies of reito lantern MD in his ideal deck that way if he draws his enchantments he can discard them to peace of mind or if he has 8 cards in hand and put them back into his library from the grave yard..plus it would also help you against B/W discard.

i don't really see why you need the signets tho.. why do you run them?

my friend runs the hondens and they work well for him.. cuz he blasts things with the red one..over runs them with the green one..plus the tokens can be used for defense..gains life with the white one..and makes opponent discard with the black..which....helps you since you are running 2 copies of debtors knell

i do think that copy enchantment would be a fantastic card for this deck...giving you extra "confiscates" among many other options...

well that's all from me for now

Vodka_drink · Joined: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 1131 Location: Brampton O

The deck looks strong how does it do with out form of dragon?

Vodka