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Idea for a new team league


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Censored



Joined: 12 Mar 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:20 pm    Post subject: Idea for a new team league Reply with quote

A little backstory/info to the idea first

We all know there are "teams" on ML, but in reality they really dont represent much and achieve very little. People who are friends on here are friends on here regardless right?

I mean the ML rules say that the top ranked teams get bye's in masters tournies, but lets be honest here, those who are at the top of the rankings are generally the people that win trials anyway, so that bonus is sort of redundant

Also, top ranking on the site tends to be bias towards those with high activity, rather than specifically those with the highest skill. Sure, if you play alot and lose most of your games you wont contribute much, but if you win a 50%+ amount then the more you play the higher you are


So what i propose is we organise an actual team league, to be played between the teams signed up on the site should they desire.

The format will be quite simple

Each team, as in line with the ML site, will have a max of 5 players

The group stage will be round robin format, with each team playing each other team once. Each round in the group stage will last 1 week, with each team playing one match per week*.
Each match will be played as a best of 3 sets, with the team founder/captains submitting which 3 players will be playing in which set each week

The format for each round will be randomised prior to announcing the matchups so players can decide which they want to play.

Each set in the matchup is untimed, and to be played ranked on the ML site so both players can agree on the result, bo3 format like most tournaments on ML

The schedule for each week, with formats will be released at the start of the league once we know how many teams have entered.

For example, if we had 4 teams, ABCD then week 1 the round setup might look like this

Week 1
A vs B, C vs D
set 1: standard, set 2: modern, set 3: frontier

Week 2
A vs C, B vs D
set 1: legacy, set 2: standard, set 3: pauper

Week 3
A vs D, B vs C
set 1: modern, set 2: vintage, set 3: historic standard

The team captains will submit player lists, and deck hashes for each player on the weekend before the round it to be played, and each player can then setup a time and date of when to play against his opponent. Each player is responsible for organising this.
It can be done via skype/email/forum msgs or ingame as i expect most people who sign up to this will be quite active anyway

Once the regular season (group stage) is completed, teams will be ranked firstly on their matchup score, and then secondly on their accumulated game score, so if one team win all their games 2-0 and every matchup 3-0 then their final record will be 3-0 in matches and 18-0 in games.

After this, we will take the top 4 teams and have some playoffs
there will be 3 rounds in the playoffs to decide a winner

The ranked 3rd and 4th teams will duke it out in a match, the winner of which will play the team who finished rank 2, and the winner of this match will play in the final against the team who finished rank 1.

In the playoffs, we will increase the amount of games to include a round of sealed as well, bo3, and then a bo5 constructed with different formats. should the score end at 4-4 then an ace match will be scheduled to determine a winner. IDEALLY these playoff matches will be held as a mini-tourny, with everyone present and watching at the time. i would like it so that we could change the organisation a little bit, so that in the constructed the loser of the previous set chooses the next format (without repetition) and then each team decide which player will play.

*if we get between 6 and 10 teams, this process will take approx 3 months from start to finish. Depending on the amount of teams, some teams might have a bye one week, or might have to play 2 matchups in one week.

If a player doesnt show up, or fails to make contact with his opponent to organise his match, their team recieves a 2-0 loss for that game

As far as player "transfers" goes, if a player drops out of the tournament he can be replaced by another player who hasnt previously been registered for a team in that iteration of the league, if a team wishes to recruit a player who played for another team in the same season they have to wait until the following season to play.

Hopefully this will generate a little bit more competition and make the teams mean a little more than they currently do, and if it results in more deck building collaberation, more practice games etc then we are all the ones who will benefit in the long run
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Lord_Cuddles



Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a quick flaw in this to point out: What about teams that join the league in the middle of a league? What would they do?
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Censored



Joined: 12 Mar 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watch and wait until the next season starts
we wont be starting it tomorrow, there will be plenty of time for people to become aware of it before we start it
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems pretty complicated to me, and it requires a lot of activity out of players who may or may not be around at the right time. They also may or may not play specific formats, may be active a month then disappear for a month, any number of things that would really ruin the competition.

We had exactly one "team" master, and it was an absolute nightmare despite very few teams actually bothering to attend. And that was a single day -- running over the course of weeks would compound all of the trouble.
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Censored



Joined: 12 Mar 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i understand where you are coming from

no one said its going to be easy to organise, and of course there is no guarantee that it will work and be seen through to the end

however, that doesnt mean we should not try...

players dont have to be VERY active, they merely need to organise and play ONE match per week. thats not really a lot. especially when you consider they have an entire week to organise the game, there is bound to be cross-over times where its able to be played

as stated in the opening post, teams will consist of max-5 players, but only 3 will be required any one week. if players are on holiday, or MIA, unable to play etc then their team captain/co-captain dont need to put them in to play.
if you dont play that format, you dont have to play that week. if there is a format no one plays then someone has to volunteer, grab a net deck and cross their fingers, but that scenario is not likely from what ive seen on ML
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triplekriz



Joined: 22 Feb 2015
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am enlisting my team in this group.

For those interested, enlist on this forum.
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radioactivez



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this idea but there is a flaw. Not everyone plays every format some people only specialize in certain formats so they may have a weakness or advantage to certain formats. so if its modern day the people who would never touch the format are screwed
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triplekriz



Joined: 22 Feb 2015
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@radio

3/5 people per team have a week to finish 3 games in a week. Divide the formats among teammates and someone should be competent.
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Censored



Joined: 12 Mar 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@radio

as i said before, each team will be up to 5 members, and with the exceptions of the playoffs, each match will reqiure only 3 players

if there are formats you dont play then another player can take your place...
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Snap-Bolt



Joined: 28 May 2016
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sounds really good. I agree- redundant byes with the current system is an issue.

I'll talk to my other members of Team Friends Hype, but I'm sure they'd be game as well!
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Lord_Cuddles



Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this happens, there will have to be some sort of sign-up for new teams and such to be added to the competition list. An email list will have to be made as well as another ELO system for what you are talking about. Emails will help send information instead of people just checking the page, which they will forget. The best idea I think is that higher scoring teams don't directly face lower scoring teams as that will end in a refusal to play a match by the lower team and ending in an draw. In addition, there will have to be another rating sections completely to submit and calculate ranked matches. For this to happen, there needs to be a major overhaul of the current system.

In short, what you need is:

1. A way to communicate to ensure everyone knows who they are facing.
2. A way to store the results of each team under multiple accounts; reporting on behalf of the team.
3. A ranking system that connects the games played to change the total ranking.
4. A way to fairly randomize opponents while keeping scores intact.
5. A way to decide formats so each player has a form of expertise.
6. A set of judges to assure no cheating or other misdemeanors.
7. A way to report each match into a single system on the behalf of multiple accounts.
8. An incentive to play and continue playing; a prize.
9. An incentive for teams that are low-ranking to continue fighting the good fight.
10. Decklist storage, to show winning decks and to ensure once again, no cheating.

If there's more, please tell me.

In order to solve this, these are good ideas to start on.

1. An email list to those on a team. Once there are 3 or more people on a team, the users on that team will be added to that list, and taken off when below that criteria. This will take care of communication.
2. When a team match is occurring, a judge must be supervising said match. This can be shown with an addition to the Judge Admin, by adding a format criteria called 'Team'. This would be a two player match that only influences team scores, or other Format scores, based on the community's decision. This will ensure fair play as well as the rules being followed throughout the league.
3. Separating teams into tiered sections. This could either be separated by ELO score, or by allowing the top team to rank up if they are the highest rank, and dropping the lowest rank to the section below. With a low team number at the moment, 3 tiers would do, in a 'Gold', 'Silver', and 'Bronze' section. This would require new coding for an entire section for the teams while discarding the old system, so implementing this will be challenging.
4. Each team member can only play once in a Team Match each week, on a best of 3 match in the format(s) decided by the Head of the Team System. If the team's number of members is not equal to to the other teams, then one member has a 'bye' or doesn't play. Alternatively, if #3 is followed, then each player only has to play people in its division. This would make sure each team is playing equally as well as inactivity being punished as other will rise while you stay in the same spot.
5. If nobody on a team plays for 2 consecutive weeks, then they will automatically drop down a tier. This simply to ensure activity at the top levels of play.

Prizes aren't my job, but that's all I have for now. I hope you entertained my suggestions for the future!
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Wrinkle22



Joined: 10 Jul 2014
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cuddles I think your ideas are great but unless the following grew to having more teams then what the current masters have in individuals(which lets pray we have to cross this bridge) then its a bit extreme in many areas. If we have say 4 total teams... then we wont need 4 tiers. If we got an active following, we could get an active prize support.. Click the ads and set ml site as an exception on ad blockers... that would help gain prizes faster then anything. I think a team rating would be nifty, it could work something like the team name becomes coded as an account of its self, if somehow we manage to have a single rating representing the sum collective of all players involved but also gave rating for the individual as such as well
perhaps captains could make account with name being that of the team. Team rating is added to constructed limited ect ect. Then after a single format match is player the players report it as a ranked game... possibly could be given a higher k value then normally found from ranked matches... then after the team match is finished the team reports the total win loss score... 3 matches ending all after 3 games, 2 won 1 loss, total record would be 5-4 win... all end in sweeps 6-0... this would allow the team to reflect its self as well as allow the individual to still climb the ratings chart even if his 2-0 becomes part of a 2-4 loss... just a few ideas
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Lord_Cuddles



Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue with what you propose is that it adds difficulty in continuation of this league. Creating new accounts would make no sense as then only the captain has control and if the Captain isn't there, team progression is void. Your proposal unfortunately would not work in too many circumstances to work on both a small and large scale. A new system is a plain necessity for this structure to survive without misuse destroying the Team system. Those ratings would contest with personal rankings and would go against why teams are separate: a combined effort for success or fun. An idea would to have a Team image to show teams during matches/forums to show the importance of teams in Magic-League as an aesthetic feature. On the fact of tiers, you are correct on an incorrect number, but then you would have no need for separation as proposed in the OP, and thus matchmaking can be entirely randomized. I appreciate your concerns and hope you continue to add to this discussion. Very Happy[/u]
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triplekriz



Joined: 22 Feb 2015
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is primarily for fun and bragging rights as there is no prize, so anyone trying to cheat is wasting their time and ruining it for everyone else. An ELO ranking system is also pretty extreme and doesn't make sense on a team level with over 6 formats (a win-loss record is fine). Captains and other active members will probably do most of the coordinating.

Email list is not necessary at this stage.

If a team forfeits towards the end, it is a 6-0.

There is no such thing as a bad team and relegating people into groups like that is insulting. Every team will play against each team.

All deck hashes will also be submitted 1 day prior to the start of the week on the reporting forum when it is made. Only 1 submission with no edits please.

Standard and modern will rotate as guaranteed and then the other two formats, including the not guaranteed one, will be randomized.

My question to those signing up is should all the formats and pairings up to playoffs be done before we start or should should it be weekly with 3 days prior to the new week?

Also, where should we report? I am thinking about making a reporting forum since this one will most likely just be for communication and ideas.
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Censored



Joined: 12 Mar 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi

so i will try to address as many points as i can in order i read them
without wanting to sound insulting, i thought i explained the format of how the league would work pretty simply, but seems there is some confusion so i will try to clarify

signup wise, we will post a thread.
i cant imagine that we would get more than 6-8 teams to start this off. New seams wanting to join whilst we are playing our first season will wait until the second.
If we hit a number of teams we think is totally unmanageable then we will simply split the teams into 2 groups and run them separately with the playoffs being made up of the top teams from both groups. For seeding purposes we can take the average rating of each player (for all formats combined) for each team and compare them, splitting the best and worse so each group has equal number of good and bad teams.
There is no need for demotions, higher-lower leagues as we wont be having promotions/demotions. Not to mention that people can and probably will switch teams between seasons as they make new friends, fall out with old ones, or move because they have a reason i cant think of.

If we end up with teams dropping out, either because they choose to, or we decide to remove them for inactivity/cheating etc then we will change all results from that season retrospectively so that no team suffers.
The league as a whole will suffer as a result but we will live and learn for the next season.

Matches between the individual players each week will be organised via this forum. At the end of each week we will post a thread with the matchups and pairings for the following week, including format information and deck hashes. When the games are played, they will be a ranked solo game. That way we (the admins of this tourny) will be able to check the players results should there be some kind of protest, and/or problems, and any direct-game issues during play will be handled like they would be in a normal ranked game between two players on the site (i am sure you guys have somethings in place). More often than not there is a judge online who can assist if there are issues. The k-factor doesnt need to be changed (i believe its low for single ranked matches), as the primary reason for playing the game is for the league, not your rating.

When reporting a game, both players need to report to their team captain the result, and the game ID number.
Currently, it seems you cant click on the single matches like you can a tourny to see result and deck lists...maybe someone would be able to create a new game type that stores this so we can check deck hashes too. As for now though, both players will be expected to check each others deck hashes with those submitted by the team captain/co-captain to make sure they are correct.

We will have another thread, hopefully stickied by the admins, showing the current standings and basic top player stats for the league, win-loss, streak etc. This will be done by hand after we have the results.

i dont feel we should need to have a judge watch every game, end of the day we should be able to trust the players who play, and if we get to a point where we cannot trust certain individuals then we can re-assess the situation then

each team will have up to 5 members, minimum 3, and upon registration provide contact details (email addy, +skype if possible) of all people in their team, and nominate a captain and co-captain. These 2 individuals will be responsible for submitting a player/deck hash list for each weeks matches. failure to do so will result in either their match being lost 3-0 or some kind of penalty system

Incentives...well...at the moment...pride as suggested already.
There will currently be no prize involved. In future generations of this league, should it prove a success, there may be a prize for the season winners/runners-up, and this can be explored once we see how well this works. We will not be charging people entry to create a prize pool, as ML is a free to play website and will remain that way.
If however anyone wishes to donate a prize, we wouldnt say no and that can be discussed with one of the site management people.

The formats will be determined randomly, i will write a quick program to do this, and to determine the matchups.
Formats will be revealed at the start of the season, opponents will only be revealed once deck lists are submitted for the matches

with the format the way it is, low ranked teams could still make the playoffs with a win or two, since ~50% of the teams will make the playoffs in some form or another

ELO will not be required, however we could have some predictions/expected scores based on the ratings of each individual player for each matchup compared to their opponents.

Depending on how much time is available to those involved in organising this (currently myself and triplekriz...anyone else who wishes to assist will be welcomed with open arms) we might be able to introduce some commentary on some matches should people be around at the same time, as well as interviews and pre-game hype if a matchup gives us two top players or players who have played against each other alot in any given format.

it would be amazing if we could integrate this entire thing into the websites ranking system properly, with real team matches and a proper breakdown but i dont think it will happen. i am not sure who is in charge of updating/coding the site but i expect them to be pretty busy and any work like this would take alot of time and effort. If this idea really picks off and provides a regular and consistent hit amongst everyone then we can push for some integration at a later time.

hope this clears up any issues Smile
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