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The Emn Draft Challenge From Radioactive and Grok



 
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radioactivez



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: The Emn Draft Challenge From Radioactive and Grok Reply with quote

Link to the draft.

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-bens-eldritch-moon-draft/


My Thoughts

Pack 1 pick 1 before while he is introing i can see the pack, its Very easy Reverler done. I have 1st pick him and am very confident with him in my draft decks. about his comments, priest is Not one of the best commons I have said this before too many times it has nothing to tap. He did not mention this so I shall. There are 3 other playable white cards in this pack so there is a very good chance the next person may Also enter white or the person after. that would cause problems in pack 2.

Pick 2 priest is good....but I can name 5 cards in this pack that are much better. maniac, spontanous, shreads, scarecrow, bloodbrair. I think the pick here is between maniac or shreds. Myself I would take shreds.

pick 3 it's thermo all day only thing else is the scour but you need thermos. 6 mana reveler is Not great that is terrible you want him at 4-5 mana tops.

pick 4 I would still be heavy red so I would grab the borrowed But since he has priest he may grab long road home. This guy has no focus.

Pick 5 for the love of god Make mischief is the pick. it's not close with ridedown

pick 6 terrarion.... lone ride is not good here for the Exact reason you said.

pick 7 overworldy outburst.. Can you please Focus?!?!

pick 8 i have no idea what the hell this guy is doing. I am assuming he takes Certain death here but he is very wrong in the deck archtype he is in.

pick 9 certain death number 2 or distemper, honesty I think distemper is better as you never want 2 certain deaths. I disagree the format is not as slow as 2 certain deaths.

pick 10 here you better take shreds. as it should not have wheeled

pick 11 nothing here for us, hate draft the best card...oh wait there isn't one. take the 1/2 because it's the only playable card. if Barely.

pick 12 nothing again take the best card, long road home.

pick 13 dried up nothing here take the white dude

pick 14 take the land.

Pack 2 pick 1 well talk about a Bad open the card is good mind you but not for the deck we want to be. I would still take it for signaling purposes but I am sadly not running it. He counts bedlam as a 6 mana plus card... you do not do that.

pick 2 here I would grab the fragment, since i have so much late game. the better pick is probably borrow malevolence though. I can agree with this pick either way but I disagree with everything he said about fragment. I have ran it in slow life gain builds just fine. it's not about flipping it.

pick 3 holy shit, a second reveler...No not a good idea, take the spreading flames as our 3rd 6+ card as I am not running mob. but the second reverler tells me that spells is an open deck and I regret Not being there. taking the second reveler demands we play 41+ cards

pick 4 it's not an instant or sorcery but i would grab the foil vampire. its a decent card and good discard outlet for tempers if we get any. Prying questions is Unplayable...Do not forfeit the draft because you are trying to prioritize instants and sorceries. I thought for a second I would have to kick a kitten..scared me Ben. omg he is playing mob......

pick 5 weaver of lightning is the pick here. nothing else seems even close.

pick 6 Savage or greeting.. I do not think we have enough discard yet for greeting but I can see taking it we have 3 outlets and I am a huge fan of shreds into greeting. I agree with savage more.

pick 7 distemper is our pick. the werewolf is terrible. he wants more instants and sorceries yet he picking trash over them.... i started to think he gained some focus. that wolf is good maybe in g/r but anywhere else he has been terrible.

pick 8. ewe cemetery recruit seems ok thats about all i can see here.

pick 9 yuck.. I do not think we need another recruit so the 2 drop but we are not playing it. this is punishment for taking creatures over spells, he has to play bad spells here that do not work for his deck.

pick 10. nothing here take the skulk guy. doubtful playing it.

pick 11 hate draft the spontanous

pick 12 ravings

pick 13 madness creature oddly playable. its not bad if you can madness it and we should be able to. About his comments before pack 3 ravings fits nicely on weaver of lightning as an eot looter. Mob should not be in his main, its a good card but not for this deck.

pack 3 pick 1 ouch tormented..pyre wolf, or a 7 drop unplayable rare...i think you have to with the flip Vampire... evern though he is not remotely close to what we want in our deck he is powerful good.

pick 2 Fiery temper Easy slam dunk. I rather table the land myself

pick 3 Shamble back or maybe the 1/3 prowess guy both seem fine here. Shamble is not normally a high playable but we want instants and sorceries and it can mess up opponent's yards. Crow is terrible for us. we want to play our instants and sorceries.. not lose them outright. I guess with shreds and recruit we could be ok but then we have to play both recruits now.

pick 4 hound slam dunk. Rats are fine but hound is better.

pick 5 explosive here, thats really the only good card for us. we do not have enough vampires for the enchantment. the skeleton does not do much for us. the 3/2 vinalla is vinalla so we do not want it. I guess I could be ok with skeleton here since we can discard the crap out of it.

pick 6 the black combat trick easy pick. it gives us lifegain to keep us alive for the late game. what happened? well that sucks. it would have Really helped us.

pick 7 skeleton key is the only possible pick and we would not run it so hate draft away. I would have hated the humble.

pick 8 michael jackson, easy pick. I could see taking the mutation here as we really wanted that other one. Why are you even considering a second Crow????? Focus lost. Respect as a mtg player lost. mutation is 100% in our main we need the lifegain and the spell count.

pick 9 pyre hound should not be here. take it.

pick 10 take the 1/3 better playable than a second crow which I already know you are playing and its a disgrace.
Our count is low because you were Dumb on many picks and lost focus.

pick 11 shamble easy pick and play it.

This is a Train wreck. I can say i would have Also ended up Red/black by the sheer opens but i am sure my deck would have been Very different and more set to the reveler. Notice I said reveler not multiple as i think playing 2 make forces us to play 41+ cards.

deck building...playing 2 crows we are forced to play recruitment as we would lose our revelers to the crows. oh, my good Ben Cut a CROW!!!!!!
You obviously had a bad day I understand...You ar 17 lands, and 24 playable take out the 2nd crow and play 41 cards you are fine. running 2 crows I hope to god you took the round 1 loss and called it a day. Go sleep off your obvious hangover. wow you heard me and played both recruits thats good but you need to cut a crow for the 4 drop vampire and stay at 41 cards. 9 mountains, 8 swamps. no question at all. you call bedlam super late game but he is not and should not be. in your deck he is no game as crow will kill him every game.


Grok I hate you for making me watch a good drafter go downhill. I did not watch the games as I never do.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 893

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only imagine what would happen if you posted this to the channelfireball thread.
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Grok



Joined: 08 Feb 2015
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still can't figure out why you hate Crow so much. In this deck it's perfect; it mills spells to make Bedlam Reveler cheaper, it gets you a free Sanitarium Skeleton, and it mills creatures to get back with Cemetery Recruitment, plus it's a zombie itself. The only problem is that the deck already has too many 3 drops.

Bedlam Reveler is super late game because ideally, it should be the very last spell you cast. Sure, maybe it only costs 2-3 mana, but that's only possible after a dozen turns and playing out tons of removal spells. Then you get to use your leftover mana to cast whatever you draw. It's not the cost so much as the turn he wants to cast it that makes it a late game card.

I don't know why you want to run more than 40 cards ever. The statistical disadvantage is small but it adds up over enough time, and the only reason seems to be that you cannot correctly identify the worst card in your deck to cut. Otherwise you are diluting your ability to draw your best cards. Frank Karsten did the math:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-is-playing-more-than-60-cards-always-a-bad-idea/

I would highly recommend watching the games. Otherwise how do you know if anything he said about the format is true in practice? Nearly all of the corner cases he brought up during the draft happened throughout the match and gave him the edge he needed to win slow, grindy games. He went 3-0, which wasn't surprising to me in the least. The deck wasn't perfect but it was still above average.

Given our previous discussions, I think I know what you're going to say: "My methods work and I win with them. Ben Stark just got lucky with a bad draft." Well, let me stop you right there. That's not an argument. It's not a refutation. It literally says nothing except that you are incapable of seeing the world from another point of view. Instead of dismissing someone for playing a card you think is bad, ask yourself why a player in the Hall of Fame would put that card into his deck. Maybe he has a good reason for it. Maybe he's wrong. But so far you haven't done the mental legwork to figure that. If you present a compelling case instead of justifying everything with unprovable statement like "My ideas make sense to me because they make sense to me," then people would listen to you.

Before I continue, I just want to point out that I'm not trying to insult you or come down too hard on you. I wouldn't spend the time typing this out if I didn't want to help. Anyway, your arguments are very similar to how a religious person justifies their beliefs. Here's why. (Notice how I am presenting a provable statement followed by evidence?)

Imagine that a hypothetical person, let's call him Mike, believes in God. Another hypothetical person, let's call him Ben, is an atheist. One day Mike comes up to Ben and tells him, "God is real and you should believe in him too." Ben asks why. Mike says, "Because you can't prove that God isn't real." Ben points out a key tenant of scientific inquiry that has driven progress for the previous 200 years: if a statement cannot be proven wrong under any circumstances, that statement is not logically sound.

For example, scientists believe that the Earth is mostly round. This theory is based on evidence of measuring the curvature of the Earth and seeing images of it from outer space. But if one day in the future a satellite takes pictures of the Earth showing it to be flat, then scientists would have to reevaluate their theory. The Earth is round only because that is what we currently observe, and it is subject to change if evidence to the contrary is found. There is no evidence that could ever prove that God exists or doesn't exist, which makes it completely useless to debate.

There is no evidence that could prove or disprove that your method and ideas about drafting don't hurt your chances of winning. Well, except for the fact that you literally concede an entire draft if you have a bad deck, which I guess you are not factoring into your win percentage. If I only played out games where I had an amazing deck I was happy about, I'd have a higher win percentage too.
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radioactivez



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenBear wrote:
I can only imagine what would happen if you posted this to the channelfireball thread.


you may get ur wish as Ben may ask for a link to this and ill hand it to him if he does.

I have played reverler and its not that late. Infact i do not mind tossing a few cards just to get him on board working. The 40 card thing happened by accident and its only in this format i have noticed i get so much draw power and CA in decks that it makes sense.

Watching games is probably the most boring thing ever especially since i get to see his hand. if i was watching I would prefer not see anyone's hands. I think Ben lost focus several times and was left with a train wrecks.

I rarely have to concede a draft.
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Grok



Joined: 08 Feb 2015
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

radioactivez wrote:


you may get ur wish as Ben may ask for a link to this and ill hand it to him if he does.

I have played reverler and its not that late. Infact i do not mind tossing a few cards just to get him on board working. The 40 card thing happened by accident and its only in this format i have noticed i get so much draw power and CA in decks that it makes sense.

Watching games is probably the most boring thing ever especially since i get to see his hand. if i was watching I would prefer not see anyone's hands. I think Ben lost focus several times and was left with a train wrecks.

I rarely have to concede a draft.


You only responded to 3 of about 10 arguments I made, and all of your responses were emotional rather than logical. I would advise you to take the time to really think about the hard questions I am asking you and answer them. I think that would help you grow as a person and as a Magic player.
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radioactivez



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i was doing 5 things at once and my answers were a little byist. That being said. I already took time and was planning on revising my answers slighty.

I dislike crow mainly because this is not a delirium or a zombie deck. Crow milling here is BAD. there are no haunted dead like dudes in this deck nor any reason for Delirium. those points in mind Selfmill is not needed nor helpful. In a deck that does not care what it mills I can see argument for a crow or 2. This deck Does care I feel. I think the spells in this deck are all important and he needs them to win his games. he has 1 shreds and 2 cemetery recruits, thats fine I could maybe see one crow but he had better choices at the times in the draft.

I have casted bedlam in correctly built decks at 5-6 consistantly. he is more Mid game than late. Most of the time the cards you are chucking are excess lands. Normally when I draft him I proritize spells that work both in the yard and in my hand, like more shreds (2 at most) maybe the blue emerge guy who gets things back. cards like take inventory or blast, or curious homunculus. things that benefit more from filling my yard with my spells. this being said i think Ben failed in making a reveler deck as he only had 8-9 spells for reveler to be ideal you want 10-11 or more no more than 15. (assuming some of those make dudes, I.e make mischief or dance with devils)

Its not about wanting 40 cards in my deck but EMN/SOI is a format where I see Mill as a viable win condition, and when I have a ton of Card draw/self mill effects I feel better having the extra card (I have yet to go over 42) Since this deck had so much self hate I feel he should have been at 41 at the least. I do not go over a lot I just noticed it that my last 3 drafts I have been at 41.

I seriously do not enjoy watching people play mtg. I do not even watch when I am at tourneys. My matches are done I pull out book or just go online. I would prefer anything over watching other games play out. I wish WOTC had an option to "NOT" see a player's hand as that always irks me as I think of what I would do, or I see them running a totally unplayable card and i no longer care about the outcome as I feel they have already lost. I would much prefer not knowing what Could have been but instead what was. Showing me the whole hand I feel is like spoiling the end before the final play.

I do not think Ben got lucky. I think Ben drafted a unfocused trainwreck and was able to rely on his pro playing to overcome. Do I agree with his deck.. No, we would have been the same colors but we would have been very different decks. Would mine have been better or worse I cannot say. Would I have ok playing his deck. No, even with his final pool i would have to make 4-5 card changes at least. In the end i may keep 1 crow in but not the second. I already know why he put it in the deck, he felt it was a correct play. I disagree. Also Ben and I may talk more about this draft and maybe he can help me see his reasoning more, either way, thank you for that.

I do not think you are attempting to insult me as I am still here, replying. If I thought that I would say some emotional outburst blah blah and slam the post down and hit ignore on cockatrice. My arguments may be like a religious person but I am not demanding you believe me or even to convert you. I am only telling you my side, what you do with the info is not my concern.

I find it funny that you chose Ben as the other name as I have a good friend named Ben and we discuss things like this all the time. I recently read a Conspiracy about the earth Actually being flat I found entertaining but I doubt its real. Just one of those things. They said that all the photos from space are doctored to reflect what the government wants us to believe. As it relates to drafting think there are many right ways to draft but No wrong way. If something works why change it? Now i know we are discussing EMN/SOI draft and sadly or luckily however you view it those days are soon going to be behind us and I'll forget 100% of any draft methods for this format and Ill start to think up and understand KLd drafts, So far from the spoilers the only thing I see as questionable or bad is E counters and that wil be determined by the end result of the spoilers and me trying it out as I think E counters are OP as heck right now. and per limited outside of a deck enterlized on E counter any E counter card should Never be played.

I play out any games where I feel my deck is competent. Meaning where I am satisfied wth the draft and I am sure that I drafted to the best that I saw in each pack. I have built the Best deck that I could from the seat I was at. More often than not I am satisfied with my resulting deck regardless of how it performs in the games. As long as I came with the best that I could I am happy with what ever fate offers during the games.

Also Ben has 1 advantage over me in drafting, EMn/Soi He is able to Really draft without any junk going on. Online drafts of EMN/Soi are So much better as the Flip cards are NOT revealed and you have to rely on your signals and draft know how. Real life they are revealed and people sue that info to their advantage, or in my case I simply block it out but my opponents are not me and they will use that info. He is allowed to actually draft green, which I have gone on record to not drafted once in my entire Emn/Soi draft season. Most of the flip cards I avoid taking simply because of my opponents having the knowledge and ability to draft around/ play around them.
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Scuta04



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's almost like you are a hall of famer and widely considered one of the greatest limited minds of all time.. Oh wait that's Ben! If you are this dramatically far from the thoughts of one of the best limited minds of all time, I would venture to say that when the question is "who is more correct?", the default answer should almost always be "BenS". When you are platinum then maybe revisit.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 893

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree with this. Arguments should be won on merit not reputation. Bens logic and arguments are better anyway the crow thing is plain ridicolous. But it's equally ridicolous to give a draft critique to a platinum pro in a talking down I know more than you and frankly rude manner. Clearly he is pretty good at this game and you should treat him with the respect he has earned through his results, and give his arguments the consideration they deserve.
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Grok



Joined: 08 Feb 2015
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think you offered anything new or compelling in your latest response. I will directly address two things that I think are patently ridiculous statements.

radioactivez wrote:
and per limited outside of a deck enterlized on E counter any E counter card should Never be played.


Are you saying that you will never play any of the many cards that create and use E counters themselves? That includes the entire cycle of commons that get a +1/+1 counter when attacking, as well as busted rares like Aetherstorm Roc and Architect of the Untamed. I don't see why you dislike the mechanic either, to me it's a really interesting form of resource management that requires you to think many turns ahead instead of just the current turn when tapping lands. Sure, I probably wouldn't play Woodweaver's Puzzleknot unless I had a ton of cards that required E, but they purposely designed the set so that the mechanic wasn't too parasitic.

radioactivez wrote:
Most of the flip cards I avoid taking simply because of my opponents having the knowledge and ability to draft around/ play around them.


This also makes no sense to me. You refuse to draft an entire color and a whole subsection of powerful cards because you don't want other drafters to know what colors you are in? Drafting with double sided cards isn't my favorite thing to do either, but it's just different, not strictly worse. For example, if you first pick Gisela, the person you are passing to knows you are probably going to be in white. That means that they are more likely to stay out of white, and thus will feed you good white cards in pack 2. Similarly, if you pick a bunch of green werewolves you are allowing your opponents the opportunity and information to cooperate with you. It would be highly unlikely for an opponent to attempt to sabotage you by forcing the colors they know you are in outside of a team draft. They would end up ruining your deck at the expense of their own deck, and there's no guarantee they would actually play against you, so it's almost entirely suicidal.
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radioactivez



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenBear wrote:
I don't agree with this. Arguments should be won on merit not reputation. Bens logic and arguments are better anyway the crow thing is plain ridicolous. But it's equally ridicolous to give a draft critique to a platinum pro in a talking down I know more than you and frankly rude manner. Clearly he is pretty good at this game and you should treat him with the respect he has earned through his results, and give his arguments the consideration they deserve.



You seem to think I am talking down Ben, I am not nor do I intend to. I do respect him. I think he had a bad draft here, it happens to us all.

The reasons why I am not on the pro tour for drafting or ever planning on being is that I disagree with 95% of WOTC policies towards tourneys. I do not like how they handle things. I do not like how decks are written down, and publish after the draft, or even during. I do like how things are handled. I understand these may be small gripes. I am not a fan my winning methods being published unless I chose to do so. Also at this point in my life I cannot fund a trail at being a top drafter.

About what Grok posted I think E counters right now are too over powered and this is my early opinion of them, there seems to be so many ways to get it but No way to lose it. I am probably over thinking it but it really ooks like WOTC did not think about it.

About the drafting you are wrong. The people I play wth would see that Gisela and purposely Hate white and prep for it. You are talking about a table where players do not hate. Where I play those do not exist. I myself have forced decks not caring what my opponent is in as sometimes I open a bomb rare and I would Rather not pass it but instead play it.

Also quite frankly we are speaking of EMN/SOI format. I format I actively dislike so my opinions are going to be much more negative. Check back with me on KLD drafting and if the set is good they will be much more possitive. Back in triple KTK (the last really good set) i was loving Every single draft.
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