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Desecration Demon


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Magic Rulings

The judge will rule: Demon was cast in...
Pre-Combat Mainphase
65%
 65%  [ 13 ]
Post-Combat Mainphase
35%
 35%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 20

Author Message
moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no infractions committed here.
Also, the way to handle this would be to back up to when the players last agreed upon the game state. This would be main phase one. Demon is not on the stack yet. Then you give the active player priority. They will just move to their second main phase anyways and cast Demon then.
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StarWolf



Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moscow, how are you bronze IV? I made a smurf where I lost all 10 placement games on purpose and they put me in bronze IV.

Also I have really profound opinions on this subject that I'll share once I come out of meditation.
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Hashirama



Joined: 01 Apr 2014
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moscow, why would you back it up to before he played the desecration demon? Shouldn't it be backed up to where the players agree and the player with voice wouldn't agree that the demon is on the stack?
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saurgoth



Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Desecration Demon Reply with quote

chakal-PT wrote:
Obviously not! It's your turn, you untap, you draw a card... If you don't say anything and cast whatever spell you have, you are casting it on your Pre-Combat Mainphase!... It's crystal clear!


This is simply not a standard of precision that magic players are held up to.

If you wanted to make the argument that players should be so specific, I think it would be one worth listening to. In this case, my knee-jerk reaction was "duh, it's first main" but after thinking about it for more than a second I realized it's not so crystal. If both players were breezing through phases without passing priority a dozen times every turn, there's no reliable way to determine when the spell was cast. Either you ask the player when he cast it and trust his response, or you rewind to the last agreed-upon game state. Since that would be First Main, empty stack, priority to Active Player, Demon gets cast whenever Player One wants to. It may not be a satisfying solution for Player Two, but it's the only reasonable one.

This leaves open the possibility that Player One absent-mindedly cast the Demon during first main, then proceeded to lie about it, thus depriving Player Two the opportunity to make a decision regarding the beginning-of-combat trigger. This is by no means a desirable occurrence, but the way to prevent it is for players to explicitly go through all the details of gameplay. I imagine most would find that even more undesirable.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashirama - The last place the players agreed upon being was in Main Phase One without Demon on the stack. So here is what will end up happening...
AP passes priority to combat
NAP does nothing since no Demon is in play
AP goes to second main and plays Demon

It is pretty simple from a judge perspective. When players disagree on something involving when they are in a turn, you back up to when they both last agreed. Then you give active player priority and have them play.
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the caster of desecration demon chooses which phase it is cast in. The other player could say "Wait i wanted to cast something in the precombat mainphase" and then the demon casting player would have to return demon to hand and let him cast it in the precombat mainphase.
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Poompi



Joined: 27 Apr 2014
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:28 am    Post subject: D-Demon Misplay Reply with quote

It seems in this situation that AP had misplayed his Demon and tried to skip most of his turn after realizing the error. This is unfortunate for NAP because he basically has to deal with AP having a greater understanding of his strategy for this turn.

I believe the judges ruling would be to reset the game state to the last agreed upon state (precombat, no Demon, AP priority) and have them play on from there.

Although, as a judge you might as well just let AP keep the Demon as stated to be cast at post-combat as there is no question to how this situation will play out. It is problems like this in MTG that make me question whether a player having knowledge of the rules to the point that they themselves could be a judge is a bad thing. What if: 1) this was a crucial point in the game 2) AP knew a judges ruling after confusing the board state 3) Needed to gain some sort of knowledge as to what NAP has planned for turn (i.e.- what was in his hand; if anything.)

Just my thoughts on things and I hope I didn't lose any of you.
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Hashirama



Joined: 01 Apr 2014
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moscow if he went draw play demon and when the guy who sacs the voice, why would.he agree to.go back to when the demon wasn't on the stack? Id argue that it should go.back to the first mainphase with the demon on the stack, where am.I wrong?
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashirama wrote:
Moscow if he went draw play demon and when the guy who sacs the voice, why would.he agree to.go back to when the demon wasn't on the stack? Id argue that it should go.back to the first mainphase with the demon on the stack, where am.I wrong?

Because he said he didn't want to cast in in the pre-combat main phase - and you can't force him to.

Saying "I cast it in my second main" is a short cut for "I offer for us to pass priority until 2nd main and then I will cast it." The opponent may break in at any time, but if he does, then the person proposing the shortcut no longer has to take the same actions. If both players don't agree to the shortcut, play should proceed as normal from the last point they DID agree on.
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Hashirama



Joined: 01 Apr 2014
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But saying he doesn't want to and what he did are two different things, you can't just pass through phases willy nilly, doesn't he have to announce the phase before he cast's the spell, not after? After you realize you made a play error, you can't just try an find a loophole to get you out of it, though I'm not a judge heh.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will start by saying that this is not a shortcut (saying demon was cast in main two). The situation does not describe any kind of shortcut besides passing turn. You can propose a shortcut to move to second main in a game, but that isn't what happened here. This makes bringing up that shortcuts for others.
In the scenario, the player casts demon and wishes to end their turn. The wishing to end the turn is the only shortcut given here. The opponent says they have effects, so the shortcut will be broken at the point they wish. That point is in the beginning of combat step. The AP believes we have passed the combat step already, as they wanted to cast demon in the second main phase.
Due to this, the NAP is not breaking any shortcut, as no shortcut is currently able to happen as they disagree on where they are in the current turn. As I said before, when players disagree on where in the turn they are, judges will usually back up the game state to the last agreed upon step or phase.
The last thing they technically agreed upon was being in the first main phase with an empty stack. The next thing to happen was one player cast a demon in the second main phase and the opponent believed it to still be the first main phase. This is the point of disagreement so we need to go just before this, to an empty stack in main phase one. Once we reach here, we give the AP priority and have them play the turn through again.
This playing through will result in AP trying to move to main phase two and casting demon there, so the NAP will never get to sacrifice voice anyways and we are all just wasting time.
If we believe the AP made an error and was trying to hide it by confusing the game state, there will likely be an investigation and a different ruling that could be as simple as "it is main phase one when you cast it" or as complex as "you need to write your side of this story so we can submit it along with your disqualification to the DCI".
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