Magic-League.com Forum Index Magic-League.com
Forums of Magic-League: Free Online tcg playing; casual or tournament play.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

(Primer) Big Red aka Sneak & Breach aka Mono-red Sneak


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Legacy (T1.5) Decks
Author Message
_Godica



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: (Primer) Big Red aka Sneak & Breach aka Mono-red Sneak Reply with quote

What is Big Red?

Big Red is a sneak attack package in a prison shell. It combines the explosive power of an early Sneak Attack (can go off on turn 1, though turn 3 is more common) with the disruption available in mono-red to form a flexible deck that can win by attacking with 2/2s or 15/15s. By forgoing Show and Tell and the assorted blue cantrips and counters that come with it, the deck gains speed (more viable 2 mana lands), protection (Trinisphere is an MVP, and Chalice of the Void is simply a win against many decks), and a much better* version of Sneak Attacks 5-8. It does lose a bit of consistency, but if you're scared to mulligan you shouldn't play Legacy.

*Through the Breach doesn't give your opponent the opportunity to play an answer or an Emrakul of their own for free, it gives haste so they can't untap before you win, and it's at instant speed so it can be cast on your upkeep in response to Rishadan Port.

The deck's game plan is to spend turns 1-2 playing sol lands and protection, and cast a game-winning Sneak Attack or Through the Breach on turn 2-4.

Why Should I play Big Red?
-You enjoy winning games quickly and having some down time between rounds.
-It is one of the least expensive competitively viable Legacy decks.
-#yolo.

Core Cards:

How to get the fatties:
4x Sneak Attack
4x Through the Breach

Obvious Fatties:
4x Emrakul
4x Griselbrand

About Blightsteel Colossus: please do not be misled by Caleb Durward et al. on this one. This is not a turn 1 deck – that should be pretty obvious. Let's think about cards we might expect to see by turn two. DRS, Stoneforge, Tarmogoyf, Goblin Piledriver, any merfolk...basically any deck that plays creatures has something that can make BSC look pretty embarrassing.

Flex Slots:
2-4x Inferno Titan
1-2x Woodfall Primus

Right now I'm playing 4 Inferno Titan and no Primus. The meta lately has been very creature-heavy, and one of this deck's biggest problems is Death and Taxes. It can be hardcast on turn 2 or 3 pretty often, or cheated into play when I need 6 damage instead of 3. Inferno Titan + Chalice on 1 is a win against many decks. Woodfall Primus is a good utility card to consider, depending on what you expect to face. It's a maindeck answer to Ensnaring Bridge and a few other fringe cards that can really give this deck a headache. Even when it's not being played as an answer, destroying 2 lands on turn 2 or 3 is a pretty sweet play, and it sticks around as a 5/5 to close out the game. When I was including Primus, I found that it was the card I most often boarded out – but that's okay. What we want from these slots are A) a higher density of creatures for Sneak Attack and B) utility that the rest of our pre-board deck cannot provide. Know your metagame, and adjust your flex slots based on what you expect to face.

Lands and Mana:
4x Sandstone Needle
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
8x Mountain
1x Karakas
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Chrome Mox

I list these together because in evaluating cards like Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal etc. it is important to recognize that we will almost always have access to 3 or more mana on turn 2 from lands alone. Seething Song is pretty self-explanatory, and no other mana source is remotely on its level. We need a few more cards though, and Simian Spirit Guide is a good multitasker that wins the game by attacking as often as by making mana. Chrome Mox is a nice source of permanent acceleration, but this deck needs to be careful about pitching cards so I don't think it's correct to play more than 2 at most. I don't care for Lotus Petal in this deck – there's enough fast mana already, and it's so awkward to draw after a Trinisphere.

If you don't expect to face a lot of Wastelands, I'd go down to 7 mountains, and if you expect a lot of Rishadan Ports I'd play only 3 CoTs. Karakas is a fun card that I'd definitely include unless you are trying to assemble a budget-friendly version. It's an answer to Thalia, Gaddock Teeg etc, and can bounce your own Emrakul to use again the next turn. I've never drawn it and wished it was a mountain instead.

Hate/Protection:
4x Chalice of the Void
2-3x Magus of the Moon
0-3x Blood Moon
1-4x Trinisphere

In my opinion, very few plays are stronger in Legacy than a turn 1 Chalice. It puts a lot of decks in a very unfavorable position, and protects from Thoughtseize, Swords to Plowshares, Spell Pierce etc.

The rest of this section is where the deck really rewards correct metagame analysis. Moon effects have been lackluster lately – it's still strong, but not something I want to go all-in on preboard. I am currently playing 2 Magus and no Blood, with Bloods in the board. Magus is worse than Blood against RUG and Jund, but better against almost every other deck. Trinisphere is a house against most of the format, but is substantially worse against Vial decks, especially on the draw, and useless in multiples. I am playing 3 with the 4th in the board.

Other:
1x Crystal Ball

It hasn't impressed me much so far, I board it out pretty often and wouldn't recommend playing more than 1 under any circumstance. But it's nice to have a tiny bit more consistency, and it's good against Jace and Duress.

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Smash to Smithereens
2x Firespout
1x Trinisphere
3x Blood Moon
1x Stronghold Gambit
1x Pyromancy

This is what I'm playing right now, and if I were to make one change it would be to remove Stronghold Gambit. It only comes in against decks that are already very good matchups due to Chalice and Trini. However, I have no better replacement at this time. Defense Grid is just a worse Trinisphere most of the time, REB doesn't play well with Chalice and is actually very awkward with the mana base, and Leyline of Sanctity doesn't seem worth it as a 1-of. Maybe a second Pyromancy.

Sideboarding can be fairly intricate, since in some matchups some cards (Chalice, Trini) are substantially worse on the draw than on the play. Sometimes Moon is a gamewinner, and sometimes it's just an answer to Karakas. It's often unsure until g3 whether Smash is needed or not, but when possible I like to board in at least 1 or 2 to be safe. If you'd like to see a sideboard plan for a certain deck, ask and I'll happily answer.
Back to top
___



Joined: 07 Jun 2013
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hm about the sideboard:

Why leyline and not, for example, tormod's crypt? (obv 1cc spells are bad because of chalice).

Isn't ingot chewer better than smash in this deck?
Back to top
xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This deck looks pretty sweet. Any idea about how much this would run to purchase it in cardboard?
Back to top
pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
This deck looks pretty sweet. Any idea about how much this would run to purchase it in cardboard?


Sneak Attack is $30, City of Traitors is around $50, Emrakul is $35, and Griselbrand is $12. Other than that, it looks like everything is <$5.
Back to top
_Godica



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Leyline for two reasons. The first is that a deck like Tinfins can win on turn 1 before Crypt has a chance to be relevant. The second is that against most decks Leyline comes in against, the plan is to mull aggressively for either a turn 1 win or a Leyline (or sometimes a turn 1 3sphere, but not against dredge obviously). This often means going to 5 cards or less, and in that case Leyline usually buys more time than Crypt. Also 3sphere.

Ingot Chewer is a tough call. The deck isn't actually as flooded with mana as it might seem, and Smash has instant speed and gives the deck some reach (I have actually won a game or two by casting Smash for lethal). I'll test it though.

Without Karakas it should be about $450, with City of Traitors being the second most expensive card. Use Crystal Vein instead if you want to save even more.
Back to top
thEnd3000



Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bumped into a player the other day playing this deck, and he got a first turn Sneak Attack into Inferno Titan when I was playing Burn. If he had Blightsteel, he would have just killed me, but instead he couldn’t find another red source before I finished him (Spirit Guide into Seething Song was how he cast Sneak Attack). I would probably play Blightsteel if I played this deck, but of course that doesn't mean it's wrong not to play it.
Back to top
_Godica



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thEnd3000 wrote:
I bumped into a player the other day playing this deck, and he got a first turn Sneak Attack into Inferno Titan when I was playing Burn. If he had Blightsteel, he would have just killed me, but instead he couldn’t find another red source before I finished him (Spirit Guide into Seething Song was how he cast Sneak Attack). I would probably play Blightsteel if I played this deck, but of course that doesn't mean it's wrong not to play it.


Let me reiterate -- a turn 1 Sneak Attack (or Breach, for that matter) is very rare. It's a 5 card combo. Yes some of the pieces are redundant, but that is 70% of your opening hand that must be perfect for it to happen. Unless your meta is very, very skewed toward creatureless decks, a situation like that will come up less often than a late BSC. In your case, he needed 1 more red source to win (presumably). That sucks, and it happens. But when BSC only gets through for 9 damage, the only card that will win is another BSC.

Also, it sounds like whoever you were playing against was not very good. I would mulligan that hand on the play, or keep it on the draw and wait for another land to hardcast Titan or a Griselbrand for the Sneak.
Back to top
thEnd3000



Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About Blightsteel, I think one reason Caleb D likes them is that often his opponents will be attacking him with their creatures rather than holding them back to block. When Sneak and Breach can just dump a sudden Griselbrand or Emmy into play and pretty much win at any given moment, it makes sense to be attacking any chance you get. Hence there is some room to play around this drawback. It's not the best creature, but I think it does work in this deck, but not for all players perhaps.[/quote]
Back to top
_Godica



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think so, but naturally I'm a bit biased Razz

I'd recommend cutting the fourth City of Traitors for a Karakas (or just another mountain) based on the prevalence of Death & Taxes, and don't be afraid to take out the Seething Songs to bring in more removal for Thalia and Revoker. I'd consider playing a Chaos Warp in the board to deal with Humility, but I've not tested that card so I can't say for sure.

I'd also try Blood Moon over Magus in the main (and possibly go completely without Magus) for UWR delver.
Back to top
_Godica



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Browbeat is no good, if we haven't found our combo yet then they will have no reason not to just pay 5 life. Crystal ball is definitely an awkward card, but it's a necessary evil against decks that play a lot of discard or hate cards that demand specific answers (Ensnaring Bridge, Gaddock Teeg, etc). If the game goes long, it really pulls its weight.

As much as I love Trinisphere, I think 3 is the right number. First of all, there are a surprising number of decks that it's just not good against. Secondly, We have a limited number of hate slots available and I want some diversity -- if there were a cut for the fourth sphere, it would be a Moon, but I can't justify that without some next-level metagame prediction to support it. Third, unless you're playing against Storm or Omnitell, drawing two of it is just bad. Most "Trinisphere decks" play cards like Smokestack, Goblin Welder, Tezzeret, etc. that can get value out of redundant artifacts.
Back to top
_Godica



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I felt good about the list, I got knocked out by the UW Stoneblade deck that finished second. It's a tough matchup, and one I'd recommend you practice if you get the chance. We played two very close games, and one game where he had three FoWs.
Back to top
KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way i always play big red is to play at least 4 blood moons main deck (maybe even magi of the moon depending on the meta) and try to get a high probability to get out turn 1 bloodmoon / chalice. This is one of the most common ways for slower Big Red Decks to win the game. If you are not doing that i always felt i should just play a more fair or broken deck, because these starts where what made the difference at least for me.
Maybe you like to give that a try.

Greetings KeySam
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Legacy (T1.5) Decks All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All content on this page may not be reproduced without consent of Magic-League Directors.
Magic the Gathering is TM and copyright Wizards of the Coast, Inc, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved.


About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy