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Shardless BUG Adaptation.



 
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:57 pm    Post subject: Shardless BUG Adaptation. Reply with quote

Updated List*

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [A] Bayou
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [AVR] Forest (3)
1 [ISD] Swamp (3)
2 [ALA] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [PC2] Shardless Agent
4 [PC2] Baleful Strix
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

update notes:
-1 deathrite shaman: you draw tons of cards you will often find yourself with to many in play which is awkward
-1 top: VERY awkward in multiples also these are here to aid shardless and confidant but those cards are still quite good unaided so its better to play fewer tops since multiples are very bad.
-3 snapcaster: good card, but not good enough. There's just a lot of better things to be doing with our mana.
-1 dark confidant: 1 is good, 2 is dangerously good but 3 will kill you, you always want them but never too many.
-1 abrupt decay: Great card but its dead vs. combo decks
-1 jitti: Moved to the board since your creature matchups are already fantastic and white black sword is better for this deck
+1 jace: Good against everyone, and can beat combo decks
+4 Tarmogoyf: Gives the deck more pressure. The trash mob is pretty good and all but this deck would really like to have a big guy.
+1 Therapy: good against a lot of decks, and works very well with your creatures that have a tendancy to generate value upon entering the battlefield.
-switched to a 2/2 split between thoughtseize and inquisition. Inquisition is not that great against sneak and show which is your bad MU.

SB is focused on beating unfair decks with FOW, trap, and grave hate. With a little bit in there to improve things against decks that create hords of creatures (fish, goblins, elves)


I've been working on this deck for a couple days now and it's been quite good for me. I've been spending a lot of my time working on standard (mostly because it's easier to write about). But now I'm going to try to do a write of of my legacy deck. I hope this turns out well since this is going to be a MUCH bigger challenge considering the enormous complexity of this particular deck and Legacy as a whole.

Without further adu, here is the list that that I made that I will be dissecting for you.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [U] Underground Sea
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ALA] Island (3)
1 [ISD] Swamp (3)
1 [9E] Forest (1)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [PC2] Baleful Strix
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [PC2] Shardless Agent

// Spells
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [BD] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [NE] Daze
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice


Lands:

Now there is a real art to constructing your mana base in legacy and I do not claim to be a master of it. There are two things that are typically staples of most legacy mana bases (particularly for 3 colored decks). Those two things are the original dual lands, and the onslaught/zendikar fetch lands, these allow you to get whatever colors you need reliably. There is one problem with this however, and that problem is wasteland. Wasteland is a real card in legacy that is so strong some decks even depend upon it as part of their strategy. In addition to this it is not uncommon to encounter players looking to take advantage of all those non bassics by playing cards like blood moon, back to basics, and price of progress. For this reason it is sometimes good to include some basics in order to protect yourself from these cards. The deck presented here runs a split of 6 fetches and 6 duals all overlapping on the color blue since the majority of the cards in the deck cost blue. The basics also reflect this with 2 islands and 1 of each of the other colors. As previously discussed this deck also sports 3 wastelands which it can use to either handle pesky lands (such as maze of ith, or mishra's factory) or in a mana denial strategy when combined with the miser life from the loam. Lastly I play one copy of Academy Ruins as a way to recur engineered explosives, sensi's divining top, baleful strix, shardless agent, or tormods crypt out of the board. Ruins has been quite useful and locks up some matchups (ex:UR Delver).

Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman: Your in green and black anyways, might as well play the best creature in those colors. Shaman is incredible in legacy, Best Bird of Paradise EVER! This creature has a lot of modes on him. The primary mode that most people use him for is as a mana accelerant, with so many people playing fetches and wastelands Deathrite usually always has a land to exile also he can be cast without any green mana in the first place, that alone makes him the best 1 mana accelerator in the format, but no on top of that they throw on two other great abilities one that exiles creatures to gain you back some life (which is nice when we are using confidant, and hoping to not get burned out by UR delver, or putting a soft lock on reanimator strategies) and one that exiles instants or sorceries to make your opponent loss 2 life (which nukes snapcaster mages, breaks up life from the loam chains, and is a source of incremental damage). All in all, one of the best one drops of all time.

4 Dark Confidant: Good ol Bob. When you throw in the fact that this deck plays Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, and brainstorm it's hard not to include 4 copies of this guy. With all these ways to stack the top of your deck it is very rare that you will be taking more then 2 damage if any. He is one of those cards that if he enters and is not delt with immediately he will take over the game. A lot of the times you can treat him as a 2 mana more fragile jace that you can go beatstick with.

3 Baleful Strix: I love this card so much. There is sooooo much value in this 2 mana creature it is insane. 2 mana, it flies, it has deathtouch, AND IT CANTRIPS!?!? Take a moment to think about the implecations of this card. It will ALWAYS be a 2 for one, deathtouch gurrentees that it always trades in combat(baring regeneration or indestructible which is rare in legacy), even if your opponent uses removal on it, you still two for one'd him. Also flying means that it can block grisselbrand and delver of secrets. Such a sweet card for 2 mana.

3 Snapcaster Mage: Tiago Chan happens to be the "weakest" creature in the deck, you know, as weak as a creature that buys back removal, discard spells, and brainstorms get. I once had this vicious sequence with him and sword of light and shadows where I played him with 2 cabal therapies in the yard, paid the mana cost for one of them, sacrificed him to the other, then swung with my sworded creature and brought him back. Most of the time though he just buys back abrupt decays which is still incredibly good.

3 Shardless Agent: I'm sure you can guess how much I love this guy after what you read about my oppinions of Baleful strix. Although the lack of flying and deathtouch is a tad disappointing his cascade is incredible. You can set it up with a brainstorm and make him flip an abrupt decay, or a cabal therapy, or just another brainstorm. But seriously. If wizards printed a 2/2 for 3 with any of these abilities it would be utterly insane. Also between top, jace, and brainstorm its sooo easy to set this up (also since there are no md counterspells, even blind cascades don't fizzle). Also you don't have to flip into spells, you can just flip into a confidant, strix, snapcaster, or deathrite shaman, all of which are good!

Spells:

4 Brainstorm: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no card in the history of magic has been discussed as much as brainstorm. There are entire articles dedicated to how to cast brainstorm appropriately and many pros disagree on this topic. The one thing everyone agrees on though is that Brainstorm is an incredibly powerful effect for legacy. Combine Brainstorm with any shuffle effect and you just drew 3 new cards and shuffled away the 2 worst ones in your hand for any given matchup. In this deck however using brainstorm properly is even more complicated since it does a lot more then just improve your card quality. Brainstorm is also used to stack the top of your deck for cards like dark confidant and shardless agent, these synergies are very powerful and take some time to master. For instance, a main phase brainstorm to set up agent is different from an EOT brainstorm to set up agent, the former you want your cascade card on top (or potentially a force of will, land, or jace on top of it if you want to get rid of one of those) where the latter you want your cascade card to be second from the top because you will have a draw phase before you can cast your agent.

4 Abrupt Decay: Hits 99.9999% of the things you care about and can't hit with your discard spells ahead of time. Not only does it hit nearly all of legacy's relevant creatures, but it also hit counterbalance, detention sphere's, ensnaring bridges, crucible of worlds, sylvan library, and soooooooooo many things. It's probably the most versatile removal spell in legacy. This has been incredibly good for me and is only dead against combo decks

4 Cabal Therapy: I've been playing around with the discard spells and then I thought...I'm playing a value creatures deck....how incredible is therapy in a value creatures deck that's using discard in place of countermagic MD. As it turns out it is one of the most vicious cards out there but I'm going to give a warning to anyone who is going to test this deck out. This card requires a vast amount of knowledge of the format to be able to use properly but when you have that knowledge, this card is incredibly powerful. One thing to remember though is that you only name the card during the spells resolution, thus if your opponent asks you to name a card then he is assumed to be letting your spell resolve and thus giving up his chance to counter it. Also when playing against a deck that has stoneforge mystic or any other tutor this card is especially powerful since you are given the information that you need to make an appropriate choice with your therapy.

3 Inquisition of Kosilek: Most of the things that you are worried about cost 3 or less mana and those that don't you can get with therapy so no reason to spend the 2 life for thoughtseize. Also after you hit your opponent with this you will have plenty of information to make decisions with any following therapies.

3 Sensei's Divining Top: One of the most powerful artifacts in legacy (also one of the most annoying since it draws games out like crazy). Top is very powerful on its own but it becomes even more so when used in combination with fetches, Dark Confidant, Shardless agent, or Life from the Loam (to clear the top if it becomes cluttered with less then useful cards). You do want one in every match, but it is awful in multiples. Second and third tops are top (pun not intended) priority to shuffle away.

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Well yes he is the most powerful planeswalker in all existence, so why only 2 copies? The reason for this lies right in the top right hand corner of the card. He costs 4 mana. Against faster decks he is not what you want in an opening hand but great after you stabilized. Fortuity there is gluttony of card drawing in this deck so it wont be too much of an issue to find one after the game stalls out (even if you don't, dark confidant can do his job just fine). Late in the game however, he can really lock it up with his fateseal. Not necessarily to build to his ultimate, but just to stop your opponent from playing anything relevant while you hit him for 3-5 damage with your value dork squad.

1 Life from the Loam: now we are getting to my favorite part, the Misers Smile. Life from the loam does a lot of work in this deck. Its main purpose is to protect you from wasteland tactics but it also lets you play the mana denial game as well rebuying your own wastelands. Lastly, this can be dredged back any time you dont like what you see on top of your deck with a top activation. This also brings back Academy ruins if it got wastelanded, and you can get your grind on that way again.

1 Engineered Explosives: EE can destroy any permanent in the 1-3 casting cost range (but can go as high as 5 with the help of shamans). Although Decay does this too, explosives lets you handle hordes of creatures in ways Decay can not. Also with an academy ruins you are able to soft lock delver players and maverick players as well (one important note is that thalia has little effect on engineered explosives, you can just declare your x to be 1 and pay the additional cost that thalia puts on it, and then sunburst only checks how many colors you spent on it, not what its x value was).

1 Umezawa's Jitti: Best equipment when it comes to dealing with creatures. All the modes are relevant and powerful. I'm sure most of you have been on the receiving end of Jitti by now but for those who have not. Jitti is way different from the 5 swords. First it gains counters whenever the creature deals combat damage, it does not care if it hits a player or not. Second its abilities can be used whether or not it is equip to a creature. Also the pump ability can be used on any of your creatures, not just the one that its equip too. This card was made before those type of things were the norm for equipment.

1 Sword of Light and Shadows: Speaking of swords, this is the one that I've chosen to run for this deck. The reasons for that are that it offers the most relevant protections (protection from swords, paths, black removal in general, and lets you slip past lingering souls tokens, stoneforge mystics, batterskulls and so forth) and it also has 2 very relevant abillities, both rebuying your value creatures and giving you life when your racing, or if you have a bob without a top.

SB:

force of wills, spell pierces, and dazes come in whenever I'm going against combo, or expecting someone to board in leyline of sanctity (to which you board out the discard suit). Against combo you board out all the useless abrupt decays and stuff, and keep in the discard, you want to survive the first couple turns and wreck their hand.

Damnation comes in for things like goblins (this might be better as pernicious deed though).

Perish is for rug delver and elves or other green creature beatdown strategies.

sword of fire and ice is a direct swap for light and shadows against rug or UR delver decks.


Few! Finally done with all that typing. I hope you guys have enjoyed my breakdown of this list. If you have any comments or suggestions feel free to leave a comment. If you don't like the list however please do not leave a comment along the lines of "this sucks" and leave it at that. Go into detail about where you think it's weaknesses lay.


Last edited by aqualad33 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OJPrime wrote:
What are your reasons against playing Goyf or Ancestral Visions?


Very good question OJ!

For anyone who is unfamiliar with other versions of "Shardless BUG." Many of them choose to play Ancestral Visions as a card to set up for an agent to cascade into for insane value. This is fantastic when you can set it up however that's not that easy to do. First off you need to have an agent in hand. Even though there are 3 in the deck, you don't always have one. Without this combo, visions is a really bad card. I know what you must be thinking, 1 mana draw 3 cards, how is that bad. Whats bad is that you have to wait 4 turns, against many decks that means your spending 4 turns on a mulligan and if you can survive you will get a bunch of cards that hopefully make up for the card disadvantage you had in the early game as long as visions does not get countered when it tries to resolve and considering your opponent will have 4 turns to prepare for it and know that it's coming, that is not likely. So that is my reason against visions, but its a very good thing you mentioned this card since this was the concept the original shardless agent decks were built around.

Tarmogoyf though is A LOT harder to argue against. It is the most efficient beat stick in the format and the biggest thing at 2 mana. The reason I'm not playing him is that everything else in the slots that he's competing for 2 for 1 the opponent whether or not they have removal, the only exception being dark confidant. When it comes to the choice between tarmogoyf and confidant I think confidant has more potential to take over the game if it's left unchecked then a goyf does. This may be my preference though. Goyf is a good card for this deck though with all the discard that it has that can protect it
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What match ups do you feel you have improved with these changes? Have any got worse?

One Danger i see with this deck is it appears to be a deck in which abrupt decay is working overtime. What I mean by this is you rely upon this particular spell to solve a multitude of problems so often you want to draw multiples of them every game, similar to how cryptic command use to be in the 5cc vivid decks.

Also do you not lose a lot of speed by not playing tarmogoyf, giving combo and control critical extra turns to recover from your discard. Similarly it seems counter intuitive to play the discard package and then not play tarmogoyf, as the two complement each other very nicely.

One suggestion for a quirky card you may like try, it maybe to slow but from what I know of you as a deckbuilder I think it will be up your street is a crystal shard or two. It makes snapcaster mage and baleful strix and shardless agent into card advantage machines. Can protect or get rid of bob, cause show and tell decks an unforeseen difficulty.

Also if you have not already you should read PV's article on writing articles lol on channel fireball, as it can certainly help you as an aspiring writer.


Last edited by GreenBear on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:42 am; edited 5 times in total
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sc4rs



Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 859

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the reasoning behind not playing Hymn to Tourach and playing Engineered Explosives over Pernicious Deed (which isn't a dead cascade)?

I played Shardless BUG a lot, and while I agree with the reasoning behind not playing Ancestral Vision, Hymn to Tourach is hands down the best card to cascade into with Agent.

You've definitely convinced me to try Strix though.
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenBear wrote:
What match ups do you feel you have improved with these changes? Have any got worse?

One Danger i see with this deck is it appears to be a deck in which abrupt decay is working overtime. What I mean by this is you rely upon this particular spell to solve a multitude of problems so often you want to draw multiples of them every game, similar to how cryptic command use to be in the 5cc vivid decks.

Also do you not lose a lot of speed by not playing tarmogoyf, giving combo and control critical extra turns to recover from your discard. Similarly it seems counter intuitive to play the discard package and then not play tarmogoyf, as the two complement each other very nicely.

One suggestion for a quirky card you may like try, it maybe to slow but from what I know of you as a deckbuilder I think it will be up your street is a crystal shard or two. It makes snapcaster mage and baleful strix and shardless agent into card advantage machines. Can protect or get rid of bob, cause show and tell decks an unforeseen difficulty.

Also if you have not already you should read PV's article on writing articles lol on channel fireball, as it can certainly help you as an aspiring writer.


Thanks, that article was a good read. So far my good match ups are the controlling creature decks like jund, delver, stoneblade. Those are very favorable since they are vulnerable to your removal and can't compete with your card advantage. The control decks are also fantastic matchups, things like UW miracles and helm combo since they are always trading down with your creatures, and your discard suit hurts them badly. Dedicated creature decks like maverick, goblins, or merfolk are more difficult or at least I think they are since I have not played many of these decks. This version might be a bit better against them with all the discard, abrupt decay, and EE. After board these MU's get much better when you can bring in the damnations (though some of these might become more EE's not all of them though since goblins plays a very wide range of cmc's and a good distribution of them as well).

The bad matchup has been sneak and show. They are a 2 card combo deck that is pretty resistent to hand disruption with brainstorm. Also you do not have a very good way to remove a sneak attack if they resolve one (just getting an EE on 4 counters using a deathrite shaman). After board you put in more countermagic so hopefully that helps some.

storm seems like a good one since they need a critical mass of spells before they can go off and the hand disruption keeps them off of that while you beat down. Maybe not the fastest beat down, but fast enough.

Tin Fins, belcher, and dredge are bad matchups G1, but you can't fault any deck for having a bad G1 vs these three. These are the most explosive decks in legacy and are built to consistently kill you before you have a chance to do anything. Post board things get MUCH better, spell pierce and daze are essentially non conditional counterspell in these matchups due to how land light these three decks are. Also if these decks stumble at all, a timely wasteland can put some serious breaks on your opponent.

Those are the major match ups that come to mind when I think of the core decks of legacy. Anything else specifically you want me to talk about in terms of match ups?

As for your point about abrupt decay I very much want to extrapolate on this for this is a VERY important concept when it comes to proper deck building. It is my personal opinion that you should NEVER build a deck that falls apart without one of its pieces. The only exception to this rule that I can think of are decks that can win the game on the spot in the first 1-3 turns consistently. Even in my dredge deck I use flayer of the hatebound as my win condition for that reason. If you loss your bridges hatebound still kills your opponents with ichorids coming back. The reason for this "rule" is that in legacy (and standard currently) there are a multitude of ways that opponents can invalidate your important cards. In particular it is not uncommon for an opponent to be able to cast thought seize into surgical extraction and if your deck only relies to heavily on one card you will be blown out. End aside. Now this deck LOVES having abrupt decay, it is incredible in this deck but it's not something that it leans on. Other cards that can do it's job as well include baleful strix, Engineered Explosives, and jace's bounce ability (especially good with all that discard).

In my experience the lack of goyfs quick clock is not that big of an issue against combo decks. If you disrupt their hand in the early game you have enough card advantage to ensure you keep the discard pressure on them untill jace locks it up completely, or you trash squad them to death. I did just remember my one critisizm of goyf outside of the fact that he does not trade up in value and that is that between rest in piece, and deathrite shaman, grave hate has gotten much more reasonable to main deck and goyf is voulnerable to that. In addition to that you have an academy ruins combo, snapcaster mages, cabal therapies, and a loam engine so there is a strong argument for your opponent to bring in their grave hate g2 and 3 which hurts the value of goyf significantly.

I had to go look up crystal shard. My very first thought when I saw it was straight up NO, move on....but you've always left very helpful comments on my decks before so I gave it another read and mulled it over a little more and I am very glad I did. This may turn out to be one hell of a hidden gem in this deck. Let me explain, first use is just as a value play that gets a creature back to your hand so you can get more cascades, draws, flashbacks. But also it lets you pull tricks like block a Jitti and return the creature to your hand thus preventing your opponents creature from doing damage and getting counters, same concept against a batterskull. What's awesome is that the optional cost to prevent the effect can only be paid by the targets controller, so my opponent can not stop me from returning my creature to my hand. The second use this card has is making their removal even worse by reducing their StP's and Paths to mere unsummons. Lastly it punishes your opponent if they tap out for a spell as you can get a free bounce, this could be incredibly effective when your got the wasteland loam engine going. One subtle point that I would like to make that also earns some major points with me is that this is an engine that does NOT rely on the graveyard, so you have an abusive engine that does not get broken up when your opponent goes and grabs those relics. I think I'm going to move sword of L&S to the board and cut F&I (protection from StP, PtE, all black removal, and lingering souls along with its relevant abillities are much better then the card advantage IF it hits).

moving on to sc4rs, EE is one turn faster against dredge and a belcher deck that went for empty the warrens. Also its an artifact so it can be combined with academy to lock out an aggro deck. Deed will wipe my side of the board along with my opponents when usually I can keep a guy on my side when I drop an explosives.

Hymn was a card that I was not thinking about when I first built the deck. I think your right about how good it is but it might be a little slow to replace the other discard cards and I'm not sure what I would take out for them.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile To be honest I agree with your logic about goyf, if your combo match up's are still fine and there is enough removal I see no reason you should play it.

And I hope shard does turn out to be great. I've been thinking about building a deck around it for a while, since there are so many great cip creatures these days compared to old times and I felt like it was a card a lot of people had forgot. However I could never convince myself to that it was a build around card, as it was so horrible in multiples.

It was good enough for type 2 in the ug witness deck (with only really witness and viridian shaman to abuse), back in the days of ravager/plating affinity and great in commander with sharuum and the slaver lock. 3 mana for a card that does nothing when you cast it is a lot these days but the card is unbelievably powerful in the right deck and this deck feels like a natural fit for the card.

All the best.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenBear wrote:
Smile To be honest I agree with your logic about goyf, if your combo match up's are still fine and there is enough removal I see no reason you should play it.

And I hope shard does turn out to be great. I've been thinking about building a deck around it for a while, since there are so many great cip creatures these days compared to old times and I felt like it was a card a lot of people had forgot. However I could never convince myself to that it was a build around card, as it was so horrible in multiples.

It was good enough for type 2 in the ug witness deck (with only really witness and viridian shaman to abuse), back in the days of ravager/plating affinity and great in commander with sharuum and the slaver lock. 3 mana for a card that does nothing when you cast it is a lot these days but the card is unbelievably powerful in the right deck and this deck feels like a natural fit for the card.

All the best.


You're thinking of Crystal Shard, which is bad. Shardless Agent is good.

As to the deck, I don't think it's correct to call Ancestral Visions a bad card when you don't cascade into it (anyway, you play Brainstorm, so it's not like you won't cascade into it). It's definitely strong enough for legacy and I've played it before in Stoneblade. And my experience from playing Stoneblade against BUG was that it was always a really favorable matchup for Stoneblade as long as you draw a Lingering Souls. It trades profitably with both counterspells and removal, so you can't just cascade your way out of it.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pg8 wrote:
GreenBear wrote:
Smile To be honest I agree with your logic about goyf, if your combo match up's are still fine and there is enough removal I see no reason you should play it.

And I hope shard does turn out to be great. I've been thinking about building a deck around it for a while, since there are so many great cip creatures these days compared to old times and I felt like it was a card a lot of people had forgot. However I could never convince myself to that it was a build around card, as it was so horrible in multiples.

It was good enough for type 2 in the ug witness deck (with only really witness and viridian shaman to abuse), back in the days of ravager/plating affinity and great in commander with sharuum and the slaver lock. 3 mana for a card that does nothing when you cast it is a lot these days but the card is unbelievably powerful in the right deck and this deck feels like a natural fit for the card.

All the best.


You're thinking of Crystal Shard, which is bad. Shardless Agent is good.

As to the deck, I don't think it's correct to call Ancestral Visions a bad card when you don't cascade into it (anyway, you play Brainstorm, so it's not like you won't cascade into it). It's definitely strong enough for legacy and I've played it before in Stoneblade. And my experience from playing Stoneblade against BUG was that it was always a really favorable matchup for Stoneblade as long as you draw a Lingering Souls. It trades profitably with both counterspells and removal, so you can't just cascade your way out of it.


You clearly have not read what I said properly and secondly your evaluation is crystal shard is bad shardless agent is good, so deep. Good post.
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pg8 wrote:
GreenBear wrote:
Smile To be honest I agree with your logic about goyf, if your combo match up's are still fine and there is enough removal I see no reason you should play it.

And I hope shard does turn out to be great. I've been thinking about building a deck around it for a while, since there are so many great cip creatures these days compared to old times and I felt like it was a card a lot of people had forgot. However I could never convince myself to that it was a build around card, as it was so horrible in multiples.

It was good enough for type 2 in the ug witness deck (with only really witness and viridian shaman to abuse), back in the days of ravager/plating affinity and great in commander with sharuum and the slaver lock. 3 mana for a card that does nothing when you cast it is a lot these days but the card is unbelievably powerful in the right deck and this deck feels like a natural fit for the card.

All the best.


You're thinking of Crystal Shard, which is bad. Shardless Agent is good.

As to the deck, I don't think it's correct to call Ancestral Visions a bad card when you don't cascade into it (anyway, you play Brainstorm, so it's not like you won't cascade into it). It's definitely strong enough for legacy and I've played it before in Stoneblade. And my experience from playing Stoneblade against BUG was that it was always a really favorable matchup for Stoneblade as long as you draw a Lingering Souls. It trades profitably with both counterspells and removal, so you can't just cascade your way out of it.



Crystal Shard definitely had potential, however in testing it did not meet my expectations unfortunately. This deck has a lot to do every turn and never runs out of gas anyways so the deck always has something better to do than reuse a guy that you have already played. I wouldn't be so haste to just flat out call a card bad. Unexpected cards end up being good all of the time, there once was a time where Nether Shadow was "a bad card" as well. If you do not like a card, give your reasoning. Comments such as "this card bad, this card good" is not nearly as helpful as you think. What's important is why you think a card is good for a particular deck. cards that are good in a vacume dont necessarily mean they are good in a particular deck (ex, wasteland is very good, but very bad in sneak and show).

as for ancestral visions, I've I don't see your argument for it, you have only stated that you have played it in your esper stoneblade deck which does not give an backing to the cards quality. I have stated my issues with playing visions in this particular deck, and those issues are not too bad in esper blade which is a deck that can afford to make long term investments.

My deck on the other hand does not, what my deck aims to do is rip my opponents hand to pieces while establishing a card advantage engine and keeping my opponents board clear and drown my opponent in my card advantage.

My particular version of BUG has a much better MU against stone blade then the previous versions. Cold calls on Cabal Therapy are much easier then normal since there are many 4-3 ofs that are staple in many lists. Cabal Therapy also wrecks havok on stoneforge mystic, stripping away batterskull before you have an opportunity to slip it in. Worst case you do sneak it in and I have to block it with strix, jace bounce the token, engineered explosives it, or hit it with abrupt decay.

Also against other versions of bug lingering souls does a lot more. Against mine I have engineered explosives in the main (upped that number to 2 recently) which completely wrecks souls, and you can't hope to just not flash it back since it will get eaten by a deathrite shaman. Vendelion clique is way too slow and will probably be eaten by an abrupt decay, therapy, or inquisition before it does much. Also I don't have any dead cards against stoneblade so anything that replaces the card clique takes away will be just as good. Those are the reasons this version has a good matchup against stone blade.
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doc_morriar



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

61 card decks are inferior to 60 card decks.
is there a reason behind this?
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doc_morriar wrote:
61 card decks are inferior to 60 card decks.
is there a reason behind this?


yeah, that was a mistake on my part, I have a new list that is 60 cards right now, that I will post below, I am currently experimenting with a small living wish package which I am liking although I am not very experienced with making living wish packages so if anyone has any input on that it would be greatly appreciated.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ALA] Island (3)
1 [ISD] Swamp (3)
1 [9E] Forest (1)
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [A] Bayou
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [PC2] Baleful Strix
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [PC2] Shardless Agent

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [BD] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [JU] Living Wish
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Some notes on some of the changes, I took out the non force of will countermagic from the SB because they are very bad to cascade into and you only have 5 cards that you need to board out vs. combo (though life from the loam, jitte, and sword arent that great either in those matchups). Swapped one therapy for an inquisition since its MUCH better to be casting inquisition first then follow up with a therapy then the other way around, also you only need to worry about 3 drops on the first turn anyways. Traded 2 snapcaster and moved a confidant to the board for 2 living wish, this Improves my sneak and show matchup Since I can grab Karakas, also helps against tarmogoyf.deck since I can grab Ooze. I can grab clique vs combo (but I'm sure there is a better option out there). trygon predator vs. stax, enchantress. Revoker vs. sneak and show or other decks with activated abilities. As I said though I'm not to experience with good living wish targets.

To make room for these I cut perish (since explosives and deeds were good enough as it is), traded 3 damnations for 2 deed as it answers more things. Cut the extra Jace, and the sword of Fire and Ice, since they only come in against matchups that are already favorable.
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