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Value Town (wolf run bant)


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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Value Town (wolf run bant) Reply with quote

Alright, here's the updated list that I have been running followed by a much more in depth discussion of the deck itself.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [GTC] Breeding Pool
4 [RTR] Temple Garden
4 [ISD] Hinterland Harbor
4 [M13] Sunpetal Grove
4 [M13] Glacial Fortress
2 [GTC] Stomping Ground
2 [ISD] Kessig Wolf Run

// Creatures
3 [RTR] Angel of Serenity
4 [M13] Arbor Elf
4 [ISD] Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
4 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [GTC] Prime Speaker Zegana
3 [ISD] Fiend Hunter
4 [RTR] Centaur Healer
1 [AVR] Deadeye Navigator

// Spells
4 [M13] Farseek
4 [M13] Garruk, Primal Hunter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RTR] Angel of Serenity
SB: 1 [GTC] Prime Speaker Zegana
SB: 3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 [M13] Rhox Faithmender
SB: 2 [AVR] Alchemist's Refuge
SB: 2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [RTR] Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 [GTC] Sylvan Primordial


Utility Lands
2 [ISD] Kessig Wolf Run: This is the whole reason for the red splash. I must credit Melisa Del Torra for this though, its a great card to splash for. What this does is it allows me to dump my mana into a "fireball" when I need too. The trample part is what is especially good about it though as it takes away your opponents option to chump block your guys to stay alive(eat it lingering souls!). One other thing that wolf run does for the deck is turn your mana dorks into real threats. This is important in the control match up because you want to tax their removal. Wolf run makes it so that they can not afford to let any creature resolve because if they do they will be eaten by it. On that note, do not always tap out completely when your baiting removal. You want to be able to follow up with another threat that same turn if they destroy your creature, so leave some mana up to cast your next guy.

Creatures
4 [M13] Arbor Elf: Great for generating some of your more explosive starts, the mana dorks are here to ramp you into a 3 drop turn 2 or a 5 drop on turn 3. This lets you put on some pressure very quickly. Arbor elf does occasionally run into the problem of not having a forest to untap, but that is not that common.
4 [ISD] Avacyn's Pilgrim: Same as above only it sacrifices versatility for not being reliant on having a forest.
3 [ISD] Fiend Hunter: This did not make the cut the first time I made the deck and I've wanted to put him in for a while, well I finally made space and I'm very happy that I did, he's a lot like auger of bolas except that he always draws you into removal that you cast for free. Even if he is hit with a searing spear he still buys you time which is very important.
4 [RTR] Centaur Healer: The original list was running Loxodon Smiter instead but to be honest, this deck is not really looking to out aggro an opponent, I would rather sacrifice the power and toughness for the ETB lifegain trigger that plays so well with rhox and angel, even though its smaller its still an okay beater against a control deck, and its much better against aggro
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel: Restoration angel really is at her best in this deck. Being able to bounce thragtusks, healers, Zegana, and is half of a deadly combo with Deadeye Navigator making it so ALL of your creatures(except serenity) can flicker for 1u
4 [M13] Thragtusk: The bad boy himself, as moscowdemon puts it, its the primeval titan of the deck I had 3 in the original but that clearly was wrong and now its back to 4 copies where it belongs. Thrag is awesome and combines so well with his favorite dancing partner restoration angel, and newcomer deadeye navigator (also faithmender out of sb).
3 [RTR] Angel of Serenity: typically refered to as the white bonefire of the damned, but she's soooo much more in this deck. First off she chains well with herself becoming incredible grinding with an opponent, second her 6 toughness is actually quite relevant as it puts her out of range of mizzium mortars and makes her great at blocking thragtusks and thundermaw hellkite (after the first turn its played of course) the only shame is that restoration angel can't blink it....oh well I guess I'll just have to live with the one man wrath + card advantage engine. BTW did I mention how scary she is with wolf run?
1 [GTC] Prime Speaker Zegana: Love This singleton soooooo much! You draw at least 4 cards each time with it and your left with a 4/4 (more often a 6/6 that draws 6 though) and you can blink it with restoration angel, also most of the format's removal doesn't tough zegana which is awesome when you are trying to restoration angel it or draw with garruk.
1 [AVR] Deadeye Navigator: Deadeye allows for some completely insane interactions with practically everything in the deck providing the same kind of "dont let me resolve a threat" issue that wolf run does but even more so. On top of that he's huge and makes blocking a lot easier, so far he's been worth his singleton slot.

Spells
4 [M13] Farseek: Good old acceleration and mana fixing, also incredibly important because we are playing so few red sources we need something to get them.
4 [M13] Garruk, Primal Hunter: I have tried playing little garruk in his place and that turned out to be way wrong. Big garruk is a vital part of this deck, providing both offensive creatures and massive card advantage (especially with wolf run). Also a resolved garruk is VERY hard for control to beat without planar cleansing even detention sphere/oblivion ring leaves me with a threat, which is good enough for me. A turn 3 Garruk against control is often just game over.

Side Board
1 [RTR] Angel of Serenity: Bring in the extra in matchups where she's particularly good (ie, against jund, or naya)
1 [GTC] Prime Speaker Zegana: when your looking to gring an opponent out an extra zegana goes a long way (ie control, jund, other grindy removal heavy decks)
3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage: Hedging a little against graveyard combo decks like human reanimator, without this you have no way to deal with their combo also if any other reanimator decks start rearing their ugly heads you will be prepared.
3 [M13] Rhox Faithmender: board in against aggro, faithmender really shines now with all the lifegain in the deck, also it rocks at blocking reckoners (as long as you can spare losing your mana dorks)
2 [AVR] Alchemist's Refuge: Board in against control to give your guys psudo haste and up your land count making your land drops more consistent
2 [RTR] Pithing Needle: mostly here for drownyards and jaces, but there are plenty of other threats that are good to name too, just not thinking of any right now.
2 [RTR] Supreme Verdict: Bring these in vs naya, boros or other creature heavy decks, your creatures dieing is not as big of a deal since you have angel of serenity but it hurts them a lot
1 [GTC] Sylvan Primordial: experimenting with him vs. decks that rely on detention sphere's or other non creature permanents. I think he will be a good fatty substitute due to how big he is, having reach, and an etb trigger that's a 3 for 1, we will see what happens in practice though.


Last edited by aqualad33 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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Iso1nano



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smiter needs to be moved to sb imo and md rox maybe idk seems like reckoner decks just mow -1 restoration +1 thragtusk or maybe minus smiter for thrag sphinxs and centaur healer that alone will help against rw decks but this deck needs removal you have no answers besides playing bigger ones so early game is key vrs control it looks like ur outmatched almost as well geist and thalia do work but g1 is hard mu for u and even with those to its still pretty hard.
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iso1nano wrote:
smiter needs to be moved to sb imo and md rox maybe idk seems like reckoner decks just mow -1 restoration +1 thragtusk or maybe minus smiter for thrag sphinxs and centaur healer that alone will help against rw decks but this deck needs removal you have no answers besides playing bigger ones so early game is key vrs control it looks like ur outmatched almost as well geist and thalia do work but g1 is hard mu for u and even with those to its still pretty hard.


which one is the hard matchup? Control? I find that one to not be too bad. As a die hard control player I can tell you that the hardest thing to do is be forced to deal with threats EVERY turn. The best way for a deck like this to combat control is to overload their removal. If you keep the pressure on them then they don't have time to cast their draw spells and "refill the gass tank." Having access to 6 3 drops with 8 mana dorks does a very good job at accomplishing this. Also a fast garruk is hard for control to beat since you generate that "have to deal with threat" every turn for no investment. This becomes especially dangerous for them when you have wolf run online. After board you pick up thalia, geist of saint traft, and conscripts (for certain types of control). As for RDW yeah smiter is not great vs reckoner, but its amazing vs everything else and it has 4 toughness putting it out of range of their removal. Also healer + thragtusk + resto angel + revelation give your deck a ton of life gain.
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iso1nano wrote:
smiter needs to be moved to sb imo and md rox maybe idk seems like reckoner decks just mow -1 restoration +1 thragtusk or maybe minus smiter for thrag sphinxs and centaur healer that alone will help against rw decks but this deck needs removal you have no answers besides playing bigger ones so early game is key vrs control it looks like ur outmatched almost as well geist and thalia do work but g1 is hard mu for u and even with those to its still pretty hard.


as for removal yeah, its a bit lacking, I instead am looking to provide bigger badder threats while offsetting their damage with my life gain. Eventually leading up to an angel of serenity when I need removal.
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poizonous



Joined: 08 Feb 2013
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a bantwolf deck also and it seems like your playing 2 many dorks... no verdicts/terminus'? your just asking to get over run by lingering souls x 3. your only air support is resto angel with no destruction? how do you deal with falkenrath? and dont say serenity, because any deck playing falkenrath will kill you before you can play serenity
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

poizonous wrote:
I have a bantwolf deck also and it seems like your playing 2 many dorks... no verdicts/terminus'? your just asking to get over run by lingering souls x 3. your only air support is resto angel with no destruction? how do you deal with falkenrath? and dont say serenity, because any deck playing falkenrath will kill you before you can play serenity


your lifegain offsets the aristocrat hits, and then your swing backs put them on the defensive, and aristocrat is not good against a wolf run.
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poizonous



Joined: 08 Feb 2013
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

your lifegain will not stop you from getting pummeled from RDW before you can play something like serenity. you need verdicts and or terminus' you cant argue against that in a bant deck
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What differences are there between this deck and Melissa's deck that would pull us to play this before hers?
What are your match ups like?
Why not just play midrange Naya which is similar, but less card draw and better guys?
As a friend of Melissa and someone who tested with her for this PT, what does this deck bring to the table that hers or a midrange Naya list doesn't already?
Also, describe your choices more. All of these questions are ones I would expect to be answered when I read a deck thread or at least close to it. You only described the basic look of the deck (I can see for myself that is has mana dorks to accel and it has an early game of mana dorks and three drops.) but I see nothing about why you are playing cards instead of other options.
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moscowdemon wrote:
What differences are there between this deck and Melissa's deck that would pull us to play this before hers?
What are your match ups like?
Why not just play midrange Naya which is similar, but less card draw and better guys?
As a friend of Melissa and someone who tested with her for this PT, what does this deck bring to the table that hers or a midrange Naya list doesn't already?
Also, describe your choices more. All of these questions are ones I would expect to be answered when I read a deck thread or at least close to it. You only described the basic look of the deck (I can see for myself that is has mana dorks to accel and it has an early game of mana dorks and three drops.) but I see nothing about why you are playing cards instead of other options.


You tested with Melissa! That's awesome! I was rooting for her the whole tournament and loved that deck. Melissa's deck was a fantastic control deck and great at controlling the board. I've been pretty busy this week with grad school and all but if your interested I'll do a full write up on this list going in depth about my card choices and the advantages/disadvantages of the deck later this week (probably latter tomorrow or on Friday). For now I will just say that its faster then melissa's and good at applying consistent pressure, and is not as prone to "running out of gass" as naya (also the mana dorks give it some more aggressive starts as well). The decks main weakness is its lack of removal, to make up for this by trying to play bigger and faster threats, late game (turn 5 to 9) angel of serenity fills the removal role though.
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Scuta04



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aqualad your deck is trying to be too many things at once...

if you want aggro maindeck the thalia and geist and stop fucking around.

if you want control run jace and mass removal

if you want midrange see melissa comments

and if your deck is better than the other stuff going, then win with it and let it speak for itself
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play naya and love it. Saito naya is very awkwardly bad. I'm refering to a naya deck with farseek and a midrange game with planeswalkers and thragtusk plans (and also hellkite, aurelia).
Also, her deck is surprisingly not a control deck. It has counters and board control, but it is really just a wolf run deck. Thragtusk is your primeval titan. If you play it aggressively, you will see good results.
I think if you want to play bullet creatures, you should play garruk relentless to tutor. I always find him useful.

Also, at Scuta04: Telling someone to go win with a deck to prove it's worth is not correct. Playing a single tournament doesn't display a deck's value over time. Testing the entire gauntlet with each deck side by side is a much better display. It demonstrates match ups much better. The amount of variance magic brings makes a single tournament very useless information. If he were to play it in 50 matches against top decks, that still might not even prove the value. It is more about the feel of the deck than it is how it performs immediately. I know I've ditched decks I was winning with simply because they didn't feel like they would be that good across many rounds. I've also stuck to playing decks I was losing with because I felt the match ups were better and I was having seriously weak draws.

Back to aqualad33: It looks like your deck wants to have better use of its value. 4 smiter is a good plan. Healer is great, but serves another purpose. splitting them hurts the team. 1 prime speaker would be better if you had flip garruk to tutor for it. play the full set of thragtusks and try trimming a mana dork or two and maybe an angel of serenity. You have tons of late game power already. Take advantage of it by playing a solid curve to get you there.
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Scuta: If you have any complaints you should try being more respectful when you present them if you want to be taken seriously otherwise please save yourself the effort and keep your opinions to yourself as they are not benefiting anyone.

@moscowdemon: I just want to take this time to thank you for time and input. You're setting a very good example of constructive criticism which is of great benefit to this community. Now as for your comment. My first iteration of value town was pretty much exactly what you described, ie, huntmasters, thrags, restos, reckoner, garruk and domri, I didn't have hellkites in there though which was probably a mistake but garruk with wolf run or slayers stronghold was incredible. My main complaint with that deck was that it seemed to run out of gass really quick and even with so many creatures, domri misses quite a bit. I really did not like this against control decks since the way I like to handle them with decks like this is to keep constant pressure on them forcing them to spend to much of their time casting removal and not drawing cards. Also one thing I wanted to explore when switching to blue was dead eye navigator which later got cut but that may have been wrong. Honestly I really like the idea of playing "baby" garruk and a few singletons while really maxing out on the 3-5 drops. little garruk is still a major pain for control decks to deal with and he also plays the role of removal when I need it in addition to his ability to tutor out my singletons. I'm also thinking of putting in fiend hunters and a singleton dead eye navigator (which is insane with restoration angels). This will slow the deck down a tad bit but it will have more removal which the original list was lacking. Thanks again for the help, I'll change the deck around a little bit and edit the main post with a more in depth discussion of the list.
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alright, everything's updated again, enjoy
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a problem. I see you often posting lists that you put your time into working on, so I figured I would provide my insight. I play standard more than any other format and love it very much, so I enjoy seeing work done on it.
Also, fun fact: One of Melissa's Sphinx's Revelations that she was playing was mine that I lent to her Very Happy
Here is my naya list for reference:
// Lands
4 [M13] Sunpetal Grove
2 [ISD] Clifftop Retreat
2 [M11] Rootbound Crag
3 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
1 [5E] Forest (1)
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [GP] Stomping Ground
2 [ISD] Kessig Wolf Run
4 [RTR] Temple Garden

// Creatures
4 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells
2 [M13] Thundermaw Hellkite
2 [GTC] Aurelia, the Warleader
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
4 [ISD] Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 [RTR] Loxodon Smiter
4 [M13] Thragtusk

// Spells
1 [GTC] Domri Rade
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [RAV] Farseek
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
1 [ISD] Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
2 [M13] Garruk, Primal Hunter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [GTC] Domri Rade
SB: 1 [AVR] Zealous Conscripts
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [GTC] Assemble the Legion
SB: 2 [RTR] Angel of Serenity
SB: 2 [RTR] Mizzium Mortars
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [RTR] Sundering Growth
SB: 1 [RTR] Selesnya Charm
SB: 3 [RTR] Centaur Healer

If I could reasonably splash, I would do so for Prime Speaker in my deck. I get really nervous over awkward mana bases, so I don't see myself splashing it anytime soon. Cards like farseek and both garruks can get help you with domri (see a non-creature, draw cards or tutor our of it).

I think a thing about your deck that you should look into is playing less arbor elves and spreading the wealth on the red shocks. Having one red shock for each color is nice because a farseek gets you a color you need and also your wolf run mana all in one. This was something I believe Missy and the team got correct with the mana base. Arbor Elf is very lackluster in almost all points of the game for this deck. I would hate to draw it late (same with pilgrim), but pilgrim ALWAYS makes mana where arbor elf has rare occasions where he won't.
Honestly, I could see the deck turn into this:
// Lands
4 [GTC] Breeding Pool
4 [RTR] Temple Garden
4 [ISD] Hinterland Harbor
4 [M13] Sunpetal Grove
3 [M13] Glacial Fortress
2 [ISD] Kessig Wolf Run
1 [GP] Stomping Ground
1 [RTR] Hallowed Fountain
1 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
1 [GP] Steam Vents

// Creatures
1 [RTR] Angel of Serenity
4 [ISD] Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
4 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [GTC] Prime Speaker Zegana
3 [ISD] Fiend Hunter
1 [AVR] Deadeye Navigator
1 [AVR] Zealous Conscripts
4 [RTR] Loxodon Smiter

// Spells
4 [M13] Farseek
2 [M13] Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
2 [GTC] Gideon, Champion of Justice
2 [ISD] Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RTR] Angel of Serenity
SB: 2 [M13] Rhox Faithmender
SB: 1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [GTC] Assemble the Legion
SB: 2 [RTR] Sundering Growth
SB: 4 [RTR] Centaur Healer
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace

I fixed the mana base around to help with farseeks.
I adjusted the creature base so you had a better midrange plan. You certainly aren't going to want to draw arbor elves, and I think it is better for you to play smiter main deck right now. Angel is almost a win more and I expanded your options with singletons to also have Zealous Conscripts to soft combo with Deadeye Navigator.
The thing is, you need garruk relentless to make one of's tutorable, but we obviously don't want to draw 3 deadeyes. So I cut down the Primal Hunter number to include Relentless.
We still had open spots and Lingering Souls and planeswalkers are a problem if you don't have wolf run, so adding in Detention Sphere is good (also helps vs. reckoner etc).
After all that, you still had two spots, so I thought Gideon would have a great place here. At worst, he is just a super indestructible dude you can wolf run late game, but also works with your plan to go long. If he gets big enough, just a 3 mana "give this dude trample" wins or you can ultimate for fun times with a ton of floating mana.

I'm a huge fan of sideboards. Yours was asking for some help. I made a simply preference switch of grafdigger's for rest in peace. I would hate to cage them and have it blown up.
I moved the healers to the board for obvious purposes and removed some weaker cards for more answers. Oblivion Ring supports the removing guys plan and also hits our opponent's detention spheres. Assemble the Legion has been amazing for me against control and I don't see any reason to not play it when we can splash into it. Finally there is Sundering Growth, which also hits problem cards as well as sometimes making another dude at instant speed. You can even pull tricks with it and oblivion ring/d sphere.

The main problem I noticed was figuring out what our plan was. Yes, we wanted to win, but how? Your deck is part ramp, part aggro, part control, part midrange. We need to cut down on the plans since your "aggro" plan isn't very consistent. The changes I made pushed you into a midrangey-control deck. Once in a while you will "combo out" with deadeye and prime speaker/thragtusk/angel of serenity/zealous conscripts/fiend hunter, but I think you can win without it mostly, but having the option is very good in some match ups.

I'm not saying this is the correct list, but I think if I were to play this deck, I would play it this way first. It could just suit how I prefer playing. I'm also not a fan of Fiend Hunter at all, but it may grow on me if I tested this deck. I just don't like blow outs due to spear and ultimate price.
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aqualad33
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@moscowdemon: I like that list a lot actually (the bant one). There are a couple changes I would make though. I've tried out little garruk in testing and found it to be rather lackluster now. We are trying to use him to be a tutor but so many creatures right now have 3 power that he has a very hard time fighting a guy and living making so he never even gets to tutor in the first place. Also have not been too impressed with Gideon either since he seems to only be good when you are already winning the game. Fiend hunter has turned out to be awesome though. If your opponent does have the searing spear they usually have to untap before they can use it which means you saved yourself a turn of your opponent attacking with a large creature and took 3 damage off of your head and if your opponent doesn't have the removal it takes your opponents creature and blocks their 2 power guys. All this aids a lot in letting you live to your 4th-7th turns where you start to take over the game. Thanks a lot for the sideboard help, that's always been my weakest area. There is a lot that goes into sideboarding (personally I think its more complicated then building a main deck) and I have become proficient with it yet.
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