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Time to get rid of the "minibeg" rule for good.


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues

Should minibeg become allowed?
Yes
47%
 47%  [ 16 ]
no
32%
 32%  [ 11 ]
Bananas
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 34

Author Message
derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an excellent solution for your problem of "no minis when I want one".


Become a judge.
You don't pass the judge test? -> Study rules
You don't get approved ? -> Improve your behavior
Pretty easy solution, it worked for me back then.


How about a "thanks for running this tournament/making this league alive" towards judges instead of "GIEF MOAR!!!"
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Fefestars



Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only played a few tournaments in the last 2 month and I am fairly new to magic-league, but these are my two cents:

- I dont think that "having no judge around" should be a problem for a mini. When you play some random 1on1 league games there is always the possibility that there is no judge in #judges4you available right now. In my last I-dont-know-maybe 40 Matches or so I only had to make one "judgecall" and it was about a rule-issue I could have googled in about 20 seconds.

- There might be a problem: When everybody is able to make a tourney, then maybe everybody is going to make a tourney. So imagine a player opens a modern event. But you want to play sealed. Another one wants to play Make-Your-Own-Standard and so on...having 10 tournaments open at one time shouldnt be what we are looking for.

I don't know nothing about IRC-bots, so i'm not sure if this could work, but why don't we operate with a !vote-bot? He will open a tournament every 15/30 Minutes or even only every hour and then you use !vote to chose your format. The first format with 8 players will be hostet.

Or do something simulary to the draft-bot: You can register to a bot for your format/every format you'd like to play and when 8 man are registered the bot starts an 8-man.

Edit: I am really thankfull to the judges. They spend so much time helping us when we need them and hosting those tournaments. But this 'issue' ain't about the judges. It's about playing on magic league and testing your deck whenever you have the time. Sometimes I have to wait couple of hours to get to a mini. That's not an accusation, it's just a fact. And when you follow the chat around 2pm CET you can see a lot of people willing to play a mini. But they are not judges (neither am I) and a lot of people dont want to become a judge for several reason.
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Jules



Joined: 20 Feb 2010
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been here for only two weeks and I'm really enjoying this website. There are enough tournaments for me to play. In these two weeks, I think I've played around 20 tournaments. My favorite formats Modern and Legacy have enough action. There are lots of trials going on in these two formats. I can't find the time to play all of them.

Also, sure there are some players who don't like to talk at all or leave when matches are over without saying a word. But there have been plenty of players I have had great discussions with. One player (and a very skilled player at that) I had great games and discussions with. He even invited me to visit his team's channel. This is everything and more than what I hoped to get out of Magic League.

I haven't been around when it was busier here, but as a new player I'm pretty impressed with the work ML's doing.

On topic though, sometimes I really REALLY wanna minibeg, but I get the judges point of view as well. Sometimes there aren't any minis for hours, and it's frustrating when that's the EXACT time you're off and you really want to play.
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, this issue (and associated suggestions have come up before, and have been argued to death). I'll attack these as best I can.

Quote:
Magic-league is an awesome place to play, but needs activity from judges at all times to survive, if there are less and less tourneys, less and less active judges, players will keep dropping in numbers, and that will make less tourneys and that will make less judges, and less players and go on...


Agreed. Typically, judges in their first three months of judging will run up to a dozen minis a day, around 5 days a week. After those three months, most judges drop off the number of minis they run.

Within 6-12 months, most judges will disappear. The few that stick around usually demonstrate what's needed to be promoted to higher judge levels, or stick around at J1.

Quote:
Sad but magic-league end is coming every good player i know is not playing here anymore.Times are changing if you do not adapt you cease to exist.Sad but ml did not so that will eventually happen


It's something I've noted for a long time. Since the cease and desist order (and subsequent misreporting by certain sites that we shut down permanently), we've seen a decline in players that we have not been able to recover.

Quote:
In DCI there are To's and judges correct? Just because I'm not on point with rulings doesn't mean I can't click some things to run a mini. The judge channel almost 100% of time has a judge ready to help. Offer some of the people that want a tournament organizer position.


Quote:
I wish they would do that or let us run bots to organize ourselves into matches, kinda like Draftbot. But, according to the staff around here: "What if there's no judge around to handle match issues" which actually means "If we make it to where anyone can run a mini, who would want to bother with being a Judge?"


This is something that gets raised every time the issue of tournaments comes up.

There are two broad areas that prevent this from being a feasible option.

1) Lack of accountability. At minimum, judges are responsible for handling all issues that arise in tournaments they run. If there are no judges, then issues cannot be resolved. If a TO disappears, a tournament is left in limbo. If a TO runs multiple minis at once, then greater pressure is put on what judges are available (if any) to handle the increased number of judge calls. If there's a DQ investigation and no judges around, what do we do?

2) Technical issues. As the site is currently coded, it is not possible to provide TOs access to running tournaments without giving them access to all other resources a level 1 judge has. And no, this is not something that can be easily remedied.

Giving individuals all the privileges of being a judge without any of the responsibility or accountability is something that is a recipe for disaster.

If you want to run tournaments, make the effort to become a judge.

Also, in regards to the draft bot - I always have been, and still am opposed to the draft bot. The only reason this has been permitted is due to the nature of drafting on Magic-League making it a royal pain in the ass for judges to run it (and in some cases rendering it impossible).

Quote:
I don't think minibegging affects how a judge feels about running minis that day, as long as the person isn't spamming.


To be honest, it pisses me off each and every time I see someone minibeg. It comes across strongly as someone wanting to get others to do something for them because they're too lazy to make the effort to get it themselves.

Running minis isn't something that can be done on a whim - it's at least three hours of commitment. It seems that a lot of players don't understand that typically, if a judge has time to run a mini they'll run a mini.

I'm also fully aware that the number of minis I run is negligible - especially compared to the minis I used to run as a J1. The reason I have stopped running - and largely playing in - minis is because the attitude of some players on this league is so toxic that I have no desire to interact with them.

Quote:
I think it's ultimately about you judges hogging the rights to run minis to yourselves. Seriously, why can't we have a bot that lets us form our own tournaments outside the site. It's just gonna give people something to do so they'll stick around longer and play in the actual tournaments.


Apart from the above points, I'll also add the following - Magic-League will never throw its standards out the window for the sake of players who will not make the effort to become a judge.

--

Now, some points on this that I would like to raise:


  • The decline for the meantime has subsided. Our player and tournament numbers have levelled out for the most part. The work from here is to increase numbers (although it would be difficult to raise them to pre-2009 levels).
  • Staff are acutely aware of what the activity is like on Magic-League, and we are wanting to address this. There are plans in place, and with luck things in the near future will fall the way we want them to so we can make a big push for revival.
  • There has been concern raised to me about the negative effect that the attitudes of some players have had on others in the league. This is something I want to address as a matter of priority.
  • There have been a number of good ideas that have been raised by M-Lers in the past. However, these have always fallen flat due to the lack of willingness of those who have raised the idea to provide more than an idea. If people want to propose significant changes to Magic-League, they need to come with comprehensive plans.
  • If people want to see Magic-League grow, they need to be willing to make the effort to see it grow. Stand up, and lead from the front.
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Steveman



Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a solution: Pardon Steveman from all previous judging crimes and let him be a judge again.
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Uroboros



Joined: 03 Dec 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really thankful for all the explanations weed, seriously, and for all the ideas people bring, seems like a cul de sac, but i'm sure we'll work on it together and fix it, i'm here for any work needed.







... yeah... pardon steveman!!!


Go bananas!
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Livermush



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My whole point with a constructed bot is that it's no different than two players finding a casual or league match in the chat.

Why is this allowed by a special channel for constructed play is not?

#Constructed4You
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BIRDYYY



Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveMan wrote:
I have a solution: Pardon Steveman from all previous judging crimes and let him be a judge again.


I had no idea this is the reason why SteveMan is not a judge on ML. I will make these points.
-He has always been right on point with a ruling.
-Anybody deserves more chances, he is not banned from ML so I can't seeing it be that huge of a deal.
-He is very active, and I doubt he'll get bored of ML since he is an Eternal player.
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Pegachris



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CMA-Flippi wrote:
I have an excellent solution for your problem of "no minis when I want one".


Become a judge.
You don't pass the judge test? -> Study rules
You don't get approved ? -> Improve your behavior
Pretty easy solution, it worked for me back then.


How about a "thanks for running this tournament/making this league alive" towards judges instead of "GIEF MOAR!!!"


This is exactly the type of response/answer that I was expecting from someone that has no business being uttered. I've heard this plenty of times before and every time it makes me want to punch a baby.

I understand more judges will probably equal more minis but you can't just throw the "well just become a judge" response and be done with it. This is not an adequate solution. That's like saying to customers "Well if you don't like our food, you can always get a job here and cook for us."

Getting feedback from consumers is an important part of any business, no matter how much of a charity it is. We need you just as much as you need us. Listening to responses and suggestions and trying to figure out a way to make everyone happy instead of just showing them where the job application is, can do a lot.

With that said I feel this site has been run great but I have noticed a slight decrease in minis run for like the last few months. Usually when a new set comes out there are like 50 sealed minis a day of it. Now its probably around 10. I disagree with the option to let anyone run a mini. I think that is a terrible idea but my suggestion would be to have a new position that the person can run minis but must have approval from a judge that is able to offer any rulings or something. Or even something as simple as raise the amount judges have to run minis. I'm not entirely sure but just saying what I think.
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Livermush



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we started an outside channel with draftbot running constructed minis, do you think Magic-League could really punish us? I mean, Solid-IRC is free for everybody to use, right?

This isn't about competing with M-L, it's just about having something to do more often in our down-time. This would not negatively effect mini attendance, in fact, it might increase them by keeping people around longer.


Last edited by Livermush on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pegachris wrote:

I understand more judges will probably equal more minis but you can't just throw the "well just become a judge" response and be done with it. This is not an adequate solution. That's like saying to customers "Well if you don't like our food, you can always get a job here and cook for us."


It's more like saying "if you're still hungry after supper, go in the kitchen and fix yourself a snack." I don't have 3+ hours to cook for you right now and neither of your arms is broken.
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Livermush



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
Pegachris wrote:

I understand more judges will probably equal more minis but you can't just throw the "well just become a judge" response and be done with it. This is not an adequate solution. That's like saying to customers "Well if you don't like our food, you can always get a job here and cook for us."


It's more like saying "if you're still hungry after supper, go in the kitchen and fix yourself a snack." I don't have 3+ hours to cook for you right now and neither of your arms is broken.


It's just that supper doesn't come around that often.
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Pegachris



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
Pegachris wrote:

I understand more judges will probably equal more minis but you can't just throw the "well just become a judge" response and be done with it. This is not an adequate solution. That's like saying to customers "Well if you don't like our food, you can always get a job here and cook for us."


It's more like saying "if you're still hungry after supper, go in the kitchen and fix yourself a snack." I don't have 3+ hours to cook for you right now and neither of your arms is broken.


Obviously you did not get the analogy because I was referring to a restaurant or any other food store. Customers do not "go to the kitchen and fix a snack." Its more like "you work in this restaurant but have no set schedule and you work only 2 days a week. Your restaurant needs more people so either work more or get fired."

Also Livermush during off time what I do is just test different builds or brew decks.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trouble with your analogy is that you want to view yourself as a customer. But you are getting everything for free, right? If someone wants to pay me 10 bucks per hour, I'll run minis non-stop all day every day. As it is, you are getting it for free, and if you want more, you know how to get more.
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Pegachris



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
The trouble with your analogy is that you want to view yourself as a customer. But you are getting everything for free, right? If someone wants to pay me 10 bucks per hour, I'll run minis non-stop all day every day. As it is, you are getting it for free, and if you want more, you know how to get more.


In my original post I stated no matter how much of a charity it is, so I clearly understand this is free. But that doesn't mean we are not "customers". If no one plays on this site then no more ML. Just as easy as it is to say "If you want more minis then just become a judge", I can say "If you don't want to run sufficient amount of minis then don't be a judge."
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