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RANT - MWS and Miracle


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This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Magic Workstation (MWS)
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Domine



Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peeking at a card BEFORE you draw it is cheating, so.... According to your logic, miracle cost cant be payed on MWS, there, I just made your entire rant invalid.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but undoing a draw is an acceptable way to acknowledge the Miracle trigger. I think it was in the topic in #judges4you for a while, and it's definitely been discussed before here.

Here's the argument from flippi: http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=16513

In short, if you complain in #judges4you that your opponent undid a draw to show a miracle, don't expect to get much out of it.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Account4this wrote:
pg8 wrote:
Sorry, but undoing a draw is an acceptable way to acknowledge the Miracle trigger. I think it was in the topic in #judges4you for a while, and it's definitely been discussed before here.

Here's the argument from flippi: http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=16513

In short, if you complain in #judges4you that your opponent undid a draw to show a miracle, don't expect to get much out of it.

I have called a judge over for people doing this in a tournament every time it happened, and won every time. Why you ask, it's because of how the rules for miracle work.

Says AS YOU DRAW not AFTER you draw it. this means before it gets placed into your hand. So guess what if they put it into their hand without revealing it that's what takes precedence.

So people in MWS can TRY using a preference to override a rule all they want but it doesn't matter or make one bit of difference if it's ACCEPTABLE.

Undoing a draw for miracle is cheating, that's just the way it is. Rules say it is and no amount of players saying it's acceptable can bypass or get around this.



I don't think I've ever seen you in the judges channel for this league, but I can assure you that undo draw is an acceptable substitute for the Miracle peek. It isn't feasible to check every card before you draw it. As long as you haven't done anything past the point at which the trigger would resolve, it's fine. In fact, the Miracle peek done IRL is also not technically following the rule, as the card is in your hand when the ability triggers (hence why you can respond to Miracle with Vendilion Clique). Not everything that can be done IRL works online, so it's necessary to have workarounds like this. This discussion was had plenty of times when Avacyn Restored was released, but it was fairly clearly settled that undo draw was the correct way to handle Miracles.
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ikazuchi



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always use Undo Draw and nobody ever complained.
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StarWolf



Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there really anything so wrong about just letting them undo the draw? The reason you can't do that in real life is because you can't confirm that it was the first card drawn in the turn. MWS allows you to do that, so it's allowed on M-L. I've literally never had anyone complain about me doing this. You haven't actually postulated a reason why it's bad for people to do this (ie, any situation where it would be abusable or at all functionally different from just peeking at the card every time), you're just using a technicality in the rules to try and get an edge on players. In other words, any match you won this way wasn't won by skill, but by bullying and rules-lawyering your opponent. Congrats!
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using the "Undo Draw" function is a perfectly reasonable way to mirror the real life action of drawing a card but not placing it into your hand. The card is drawn, but still clearly identifiable. Therefore, your rant is invalid and you need to take a chill pill. For argument's sake, how did you think people were going to do this? Just never play miracle cards ever?
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ikazuchi



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Account4this wrote:
xJudicatorx wrote:
Using the "Undo Draw" function is a perfectly reasonable way to mirror the real life action of drawing a card but not placing it into your hand. The card is drawn, but still clearly identifiable. Therefore, your rant is invalid and you need to take a chill pill. For argument's sake, how did you think people were going to do this? Just never play miracle cards ever?



Being ACCEPTABLE has nothing to do with IT IS CHEATING. Using it Workstation for any reason will result in a game loss. PERIOD because You're breaking the rules.

End of story!


Best argument ever! Very Happy
Why is it cheating?
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ikazuchi



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Account4this wrote:
Quote:
Why is it cheating?

Go to a tournament and undo every draw you make and see how many game loses you get before you actually get DQ'd from the tournament but before you're DQ'd, try saying to the judges "Well it's accepted by players" and see how well that works out for you.

Then come back and ask why is it cheating.


What are you talking about, are you talking about magic-league or IRL? Undoing draw in MWS is cheating only if you try to abuse it.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That isn't what I said at all. I said "Drawing a card and undoing that draw is the same as drawing a card and not mixing it in with the cards in your hand."
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Account4this wrote:
ikazuchi wrote:

What are you talking about, are you talking about magic-league or IRL? Undoing draw in MWS is cheating only if you try to abuse it.


I'll make this really simple. Show me where in the Rules for Miracle that it

When anyone can show me where it says that in the comprehensive rules for Miracle, says after you draw this card, you may then undo draw and reveal it to play it for it's Miracle cost. Then you have a sustainable argument.


In fact show me in any rules for magic that there is any rule stating you can undo a draw on any card mechanics in magic.


You should follow my link earlier, where Flippi, former judge director and current L4, says explicitly that Undo Draw is allowed. A search through old forum topics will give you a post from Weedmonkey, another L4, who says the same thing.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Account4this wrote:
Miracle rules say AS you draw it which means you cannot place it into your hand then decide to undo the draw. Miracle cost is gone the instant the card is in your hand..PERIOD


There isn't a game zone for "between your hand and your deck". Miracle actually triggers when the card is in your hand.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're just twisting the words to make yourself sound correct now. Time to put your big boy pants on.
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ikazuchi



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Account4this wrote:
xJudicatorx wrote:
That isn't what I said at all. I said "Drawing a card and undoing that draw is the same as drawing a card and not mixing it in with the cards in your hand."


Drawing a card means to take a card off the top of your library and put it into your hand.

AS you draw is not the same thing as Drawing it. As you draw it means from the time you take it off the top of your library but before it actually gets placed into your hand.

Drawing it means it's placed into your hand.

Miracle rules say AS you draw it which means you cannot place it into your hand then decide to undo the draw. Miracle cost is gone the instant the card is in your hand..PERIOD

You cannot draw a card, which negates it's miracle cost, the decide to put it back on top of your deck from your hand then try to cast it for miracle because the miracle cost was forfeited the instant you put the card into your hand the first time.

Trying to get a miracle cost after you cannot do it, is cheating.


This is true in real life where you can look at the card before you put it into your hand and this is why there isn't need for undo draw in real life.
But in MWS looking at the top of your library and then drawing it and drawing it and the undoing the draw is the same thing but doing the undo draw saves up time.


Last edited by ikazuchi on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ikazuchi



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever dude, if you don't like MWS and how people use it don't play Magic on it!
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just want to toss this out there before I lock the thread.
On MWS - Undo Draw (the action) is a 100% LEGAL and ACCEPTED way to "trigger" miracle. The Undo Draw action returns the last card drawn to the top of your deck and cannot be cheated.
In real life - Once a card touches your hand of cards that you are drawing, it becomes indistinguishable. This means that in real life magic, you must be sure to reveal the card and keep it revealed before it goes into your hand of cards.
On MWS, no one gives a single fuck how real life miracles work (pardon the language). This is the way miracles work on MWS and if you dislike that, you can concede each game it occurs in (and if in a league match, you can expect some talking to from the judges).

Also, if you try to "undo draws" in real life, you will not receive game losses and will not be disqualified, unless, you know, you are trying to actively cheat. Game losses aren't something you will get for this.

Also, a head judge's ruling is FINAL. Oracle rules do not "override" what a judge rules. If you are on Magic-League and a judge rules that they triggered it correctly, then they did. If you are in real life and a judge rules that they can miracle, they can.

In addition, you went on a rant about how you can shuffle your deck and change decks, well, that will lead you down a very quick road to a ban. There is a huge difference between using an accepted and pretty much the easiest way to use a mechanic and attempting to cheat because you disagree with something.

All I have seen from you is a bunch of bitching so far and it is getting on my nerves. Your account is 4 days old and you have posted more aggravating and grammatically difficult to understand posts than most people I have seen here. Please either just get over it or stop. The community is giving you answers and all you do is fight them non-stop without a care in the world. If you expect to be taken seriously here at all, I would think that calming down and having respect would be a great start.

In closing, MWS has its own protocol for procedures that are much different than real life. The reason for this is because it is possible and impossible to do certain things in one and the other. If you dislike how this works, why are you here? Also, this is Magic-League, not real life. Even though we have many real life judges here (including myself), we don't deal with real life situations here on the forums.

Oh, and before I forget... the MWS shuffler is random. It follows a random algorithm which the coding for is correct. Trying to claim it isn't random is just ignorant.

This thread will be closed as soon as possible and I expect to see nothing more about this from you.
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