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Heartless Lich combo


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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This actually shows a LOT of promise. I'm definitely intrigued.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but you'll have to activate the Lich each time you want to re-play that Myr, so it IS limited by mana.
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struikje



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked the idea too, but I had different choices:

I played UB, as mana is hard enough I think. Also, as card draw, I had ponders and think twice, 7of em. I think only 3 desperate ravings will not find you heartless early enough.

Also, grafdiggers cage is a good card, and I'd add some win conditions like wurmcoils/titans/sphinxes/demons, ...

Another thing I'd deffinetely add is at least 1 massacre wurm in the sideboard, but preferably in the main, as its such a good card against all the little creature decks of the current meta.

Dissipate also seems like the choice over cancel.

I haven't tested yet with priest of urabrask, but palladium myr seems better to me, as the myr is useful to ramp when you don't draw heartless, and if you do draw it, its kinda like sol ring on a stick, and no dark ritual. If you don't draw heartless the priest seems kinda janky.

Do tell if you make changes to the deck
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Raybelfast



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the grim born and archivist build from DeCordovas article
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raybelfast wrote:
I like the grim born and archivist build from DeCordovas article

Send any DeCrovoda decks to the Casual section please. Actually send them to the Magic Rulings section since he is always coming up with comboes just for people to tell him on the forum that it doesn't actually work.
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Raybelfast



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a singleton devils play for all that mana.
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, the combo requires too many cards, so it can never be good.
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MassO



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you should have at least 4 ways to get rid of cage and orb, 2 isn't going to cut it, bombs double as a way I guess but I would prefer 4 hard cast artifact hate for those cards.
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MassO



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
I heard that lich is integral to the combo and it being able to be killed/disrupted by a number of 1-2cc cards is a problem.


This hasn't been a problem for ExarchTwin a couple of months ago and in modern now.

By saying that there is answers to a deck/combo, shouldn't not be a huge reason to not play the deck/combo.

Its like saying I need money but I will have to pay taxes if I get a job, so I'm not going to get a job.

Usually, If a combo deck can make a splash in the Meta, and what I mean with that is being able to catch the Meta off guard game one and tweaking the deck with the SB, to get another game in games 2 and 3 with help from the SB.

ExarchTwin died off after the first major tournament because people started maindecking hate for the deck and even more hate SB. The best environment to play a combo deck is one that is not prepared for it.
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struikje



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

when you start comparing this combo with exarch twin things just get silly. This needs a card more, doesn't kill you wen you got all 3, etc etc. I see the combo being splashed in a different Heartless summoning deck, but on its own it won't do much I think.

About it being good if the meta isn't prepared for it, as said before, not only does creature removal, but also grafdiggers cage shut you out, and with no backup plan this just scoops to that.
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MassO



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Problem here Engrishskill is you are talking out the side of your neck!

D/A has made Standard into an aggro format, with Undying and rampant tokens and creatures that make more creatures when they die. It is really bad when DoJ and BSZ's are considered low priority in control decks be it U/W or U/B. BSZ is better than DoJ, b/c you can keep casting it if you keep drawing it, but not too many people run 4 Main, and Ratchet bomb is good board card but only gets rid of the tokens, not the creatures that made the tokens and it just plain sucks versus Undying creatures.

With more of an Aggro format, there is not many cards currently that can stop the combo that are being played in the aggro decks. A well timed mana leak, maybe but combo has the luxury of waiting to go off when the opponent is tapped out. Incinerate in any aggro deck that splashes red, not alot now, but I think R/B vamps and R/G aggro could make a splash. Go for the throat or Tragic Slip for B/W token and or Zombie decks. Blue has Vapor Snare as well, but only delays a turn or so. The problem with the aggro format which helps this deck alot is the fact that removal will be minimal, 4-6 removal spells per deck, and in Haunted Humans, there is 8, ie Fiend Hunter and Ob ring but both are sorcery speed and will do nothing to avoid the combo.

Now that that is out of the way, I have played the all out version of this deck, no counters, just ample drawing and searching, with a single devils play as back up. This deck will go off on turn 3 - 5% of the time, turn 4 - 15% of the time, turn 5 - 50% of the time, turn 6 - 90% of the time. I came up with those stats by playing this deck 100 times vs these four decks: Haunted Humans, U/W Delver, Illusions, and B/W tokens. Total record for the 100 games was 80-20, with most of the losses coming after a turn 1 win. Will probably have to add Mental Misstep in the board for Cage and Nihil spellbomb.

This is a good combo deck, probably will not go high in bigger tournaments just because none of the pros are going to chance their tourney on a 4 card combo deck, however FNM and M-L tournaments I think will have a better chance at succeeding. Only time will tell, and again Engrish, attempt to play the decks that you are commenting on, otherwise you are just a troll and lack sufficient substance to the people needing advice or help. If you won't attempt to be helpful, which as a judge you probably should try to be, keep your mouth and/or fingers quite.
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MassO



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mental Misstep is golden in the board, gets rid of so much, has won me a ton of games. Here is what it takes care of:

Nihil spellbomb, Cage, Vapor Snare, Tragic Slip, Surgical Extraction, Dispatch, Purify the grave, Demystify, Galvanic Blast, Despise, and Unsummon.

Not to mention all the aggro one drops from Stromkirk Noble to Delver to Champion of the parish to BoP to the Gravecrawler.

I would also think about adding Turn Aside as well to the board.
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JestersBoots



Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't want to be the guy to call you out on this, but the T3 kill you're touting requires Priest of Urabask, Heartless Summoming, Havengul Lich, Perilous Myr, one of a few specific combination of lands.

The mathematical probability of pulling a Priest in your first three turns is roughly 26%. Same for Heartless, Lich, and Perilous. The odds of pulling all four are 0.45%, or roughly 1 in 200 games. Not quite the five percent you claim. You also need to pull a black source by T2, a blue source, and a red source, only one of the three mentioned can ETB tapped.

The odds of you having three lands by T3 are pretty high. The odds of them being two untapped by T2, and three untapped by T3 with the capability of producing URB are about 22%. This needs to coincide with the same 0.45% chance you have of pulling all four of your peices in the first ten cards... which is exactly 0.00099, or less than one in a thousand. You can increase this slightly by adding one of the cards as being a faithless looting, in which case your chances on the lands goes up. But you need to have the faithless looting in T1 with an untapped red source which likewise lowers your chances.

This pretty much makes me question the validity of your "results". Especially with a sample size of 100. You're saying you won on T3 in 1/20th of the games you played versus the mathematical 1/1000... and did it FIVE TIMES. In the immortal words of My Cousin Vinny - "I'm trew wit dis guy."
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MassO



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JestersBoots wrote:
I didn't want to be the guy to call you out on this, but the T3 kill you're touting requires Priest of Urabask, Heartless Summoming, Havengul Lich, Perilous Myr, one of a few specific combination of lands.

The mathematical probability of pulling a Priest in your first three turns is roughly 26%. Same for Heartless, Lich, and Perilous. The odds of pulling all four are 0.45%, or roughly 1 in 200 games. Not quite the five percent you claim. You also need to pull a black source by T2, a blue source, and a red source, only one of the three mentioned can ETB tapped.

The odds of you having three lands by T3 are pretty high. The odds of them being two untapped by T2, and three untapped by T3 with the capability of producing URB are about 22%. This needs to coincide with the same 0.45% chance you have of pulling all four of your peices in the first ten cards... which is exactly 0.00099, or less than one in a thousand. You can increase this slightly by adding one of the cards as being a faithless looting, in which case your chances on the lands goes up. But you need to have the faithless looting in T1 with an untapped red source which likewise lowers your chances.

This pretty much makes me question the validity of your "results". Especially with a sample size of 100. You're saying you won on T3 in 1/20th of the games you played versus the mathematical 1/1000... and did it FIVE TIMES. In the immortal words of My Cousin Vinny - "I'm trew wit dis guy."


To play 1000 games is just retarded, 100 times is a good enough sample and 5 times I pulled off the turn 3 till, If you have a Darkslick, Blackcleave, and a Drowned Catacomb in your had, you play the Catacomb tapped, so that you have open mana on turn 2 and 3....just because you don't get a basic land doesn't make it that hard to play.

Also, If you flip a quarter 100 times, I am willing to bet you that it will not hit heads and tails 50 times each, although the "mathematical probability" of it says it will happen 50 times. I also play ponders and faithless looting to tweek my hand enough so that it happens more often than the "mathematical probability"

You don't need the Myr/devil's play in hand, just your grave. So really you need to have a Summoning/Lich/Priest, in your hand. Most of the time if you play 4 of all these cards you will have 2 of them and have to ponder up the other. If ponder doesn't work then you are just searching for it while you wait for your opponent to tap out.



Also for Danodarr:

I play 4 Mental Misstep....its just too good to not have.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some cards to think about in this deck:

necrotic ooze maindeck (number?). extra lich if it's in graveyard.
forbidden alchemy maindeck. i think it's a must, puts combo pieces on graveyard.
secrets of the dead/burning vengeance. self explanatory.
curse of the echoes (a must in SB): stop fearing counterspells.
possible white splash:
mentor of the meek. with lich and the priest you get to draw all your deck.
phyrexian unlife (SB) to live long enough to combo out.
grand abolisher: just play lich and win with this guy on board and all your stuff in graveyard.

those are just some ideas to work with. maybe i'll come out with a build of my own, but now i don't have time. i specially like the ooze and the mentor, and think alchemy is a must.

EDIT: i saw this list already has alchemy XD. DeCordova list is stupid as same thing can be done with necrotic ooze and much less mana. after thinking about this, i think this can't be thought as a fast combo but as a control-combo just as twins was. no problem you need more pieces as you need them on graveyard, and looting and alchemy should do that for you.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

engrishkill, nobody reads your post any longer, you're boring, pretentious and annoying.
just one thing to say to those trying to calculate odds: if you want to be really rigurous, you should add probabilities of drawing any of the draw cards, and then add the probability of getting your combo pieces in those draws. i guess it's not so good as someone said but also not as bad as someone else did.
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