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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is exactly what my mates said, but when Golgari checks for creatures, it actually sees itself since its never on the battlefield without counters thanks to its replacement effect. Therefore it sees the narcos, the first creatures and itself in the grave and comes into play with 4 counters
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think these are the rules for that last question about the Grave Troll.

Quote:
614.1d Continuous effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . .” or “[Objects] enter the battlefield . . .” are replacement effects.

400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, all players look at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

omg, that is completely retarded. The phrase "whenever enters the battlefield" implies that the Troll is now in the battlefield and no the graveyard.

I think Wizards is trolling us.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:
That's easy: since the Golem both gains and loses an ability in the same layer, you go by timestamp (I don't think this is a dependency issue and neither are characteristic defining). Since Blade Splicer was cast first, it gets the earliest time stamp so First Strike is applied to the Golem first. Next, Humility's ability is applied as it has the later timestamp, therefore turning the Golem into a 1/1 with no abilities.

amirite?



This is a dependency issue. It's not a matter of one thing giving the golem first strike and another taking it away, it's a matter of taking away the Blade Splicer's ability. Because Humility's effect changes the existence of the Splicer's effect, Splicer's depends on Humility's, so Humility is applied first.


Quote:

613.7a. An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.





In the case of the Golgari Grave-Troll going from graveyard to battlefield, it will count itself when determining the number of +1/+1 counters it gets. As rule 400.6 explains, the replacement effect is applied before the troll moves to the battlefield. And before the troll moves to the battlefield, it's still in the graveyard, there's no in between. It goes directly from one zone to the other. So at the time the effect is applied, it's still there so counts itself.

The phrase "Whenever ... enters the battlefield" does indeed involved the object already being on the battlefield, but such text appears in triggered abilities. Golgari Grave-Troll does not have such text, so how such text works isn't relevant.
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres another question

In a PTQ, T2 format Alex playes Pete. Alex plays Memoricide och Pete lets it resolve. Alex names "Wrath of God" och realises that the wrath of god is not a legal card in this format and calls a judge

What will the judge do?

Memoricide
3B
Sorcery
Name a nonland card. Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Wrath of God
2WW
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation which in the Competitive Rules Enforcement Level warrants a warning and the game-state gets backed up to before the illegal move was made.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a question:

If I have a Platinum Angel in play and my opponent has no way to stop it in his deck, can he keep playing?
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the rule for the Memoricide question. Since he must choose a card that is legal in the format it would be an illegal play if he named a card that is not in the format.

Quote:
201.3. If an effect instructs a player to name a card, the player must choose the name of a card that exists in the Oracle card reference (see rule 108.1) and is legal in the format of the game the player is playing. (See rule 100.6.) If the player wants to name a split card, the player must name both halves of the split card. (See rule 708.) If the player wants to name a flip card’s alternative name, the player may do so. (See rule 709.) A player may not choose the name of a token unless it’s also the name of a card.
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the Platinum Angel question. Of course he can keep playing. The player who controls the Platinum Angel might cast a Day of Judgement or something and kill it himself.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:
Here's a question:

If I have a Platinum Angel in play and my opponent has no way to stop it in his deck, can he keep playing?


Rules questions are one thing, "does this constitute stalling?" questions are another. This thread can be productive with rules questions, whether a theoretical situation constitutes stalling isn't going to lead to anything productive as people will (yes, it always happens this way) just keep on modifying a small detail in the situation trying to get a different answer.
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I control a Chandra Ablaze and a Library of Leng. I activate Chandras +1 ability. When it resolves, i discard Lightning Bolt, but i want to put it ontop of my library thanks to Library of Leng. What will happen?

Chandra Ablaze
4RR
Planeswalker — Chandra

+1: Discard a card. If a red card is discarded this way, Chandra Ablaze deals 4 damage to target creature or player.
-2: Each player discards his or her hand, then draws three cards.
-7: Cast any number of red instant and/or sorcery cards from your graveyard without paying their mana costs.

Library of Leng
1
Artifact

You have no maximum hand size.
If an effect causes you to discard a card, discard it, but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your graveyard.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clariax wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
Here's a question:

If I have a Platinum Angel in play and my opponent has no way to stop it in his deck, can he keep playing?


Rules questions are one thing, "does this constitute stalling?" questions are another. This thread can be productive with rules questions, whether a theoretical situation constitutes stalling isn't going to lead to anything productive as people will (yes, it always happens this way) just keep on modifying a small detail in the situation trying to get a different answer.


What?
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the Library of Leng question. Putting discarding the Bolt from your hand to the top of your library is a replacement effect, but you are still discarding a red card so you will get to deal the 4 damage from the Chandra ability.
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

magicman85 wrote:
For the Library of Leng question. Putting discarding the Bolt from your hand to the top of your library is a replacement effect, but you are still discarding a red card so you will get to deal the 4 damage from the Chandra ability.


your partially right, but theres been a recent rule update wich applies here
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the gatherer:

Since the card goes directly to the library, the card is not revealed unless the spell or ability requiring the discard specifically says it is.


Chandra's ability doesn't say you have to reveal it, so if you choose to use Library of Leng's ability, it goes face down to the top of your library.


Btw...this is an evil rules question.
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