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The Rules Workshop


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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds correct to me Apple.

Quote:
613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”

613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.

613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”

613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.

613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.

613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.

613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.

613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied. See rule 604.3.

613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.

613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.

613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, “Counters.”

613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.

613.6a A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later.

613.6c An object’s timestamp is the time it entered the zone it’s currently in, unless it’s an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that’s attached to another object or player, or it’s a face-up plane card.

613.8. One continuous effect can override another. Sometimes the results of one effect determine whether another effect applies or what another effect does.
Example: Two effects are affecting the same creature: one from an Aura that says “Enchanted creature gains flying” and one from an Aura that says “Enchanted creature loses flying.” Neither of these depends on the other, since nothing changes what they affect or what they’re doing to it. Applying them in timestamp order means the one that was generated last “wins.” The same process would be followed, and the same result reached, if either of the effects had a duration (such as “Target creature loses flying until end of turn”) or came from a non-Aura source (such as “All creatures lose flying”).[/i]


The Splicer's ability that gives all Golems First Strike and the Humility's ability are both applied in Layer 6, so they would be ordered in timestamp order from earliest to latest. The Humility's ability that makes all creatures 1/1 is applied in Layer 7b so since it is applied last the Golem and the Splicer would be 1/1.
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a question for you guys.

Pancho is the active player and he controls a Wheel of Sun and Moon (enchanting Jose) and a Humility. Jose is the nonactive player and he controls only a Progenitus. Pancho casts a Geth's Verdict targeting Jose and it resolves. What happens to the Progenitus?

Also, what if the same thing happened, but there was no Humility in play?


Progenitus
Legendary Creature - Hydra Avatar
Protection from everything.
If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

Wheel of Sun and Moon
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant player
If a card would be put into enchanted player's graveyard from anywhere, instead that card is revealed and put on the bottom of that player's library.

Humility
Enchantment
All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.

Geth's Verdict
Instant
Target player sacrifices a creature and loses 1 life.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Humility in play, Progenitus would be put on the bottom of it's controller's graveyard.

Without Humility in play, it would be up to the timestamp on both Progenitus and Wheel of Sun and Moon. If Wheel came into play first, then Progenitus would be shuffled into it's owner's library, and if Progenitus came into play first, it would be put on the bottom.
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With humility:
Humilty will affect progenitus since it is not targeting it, making it a 1/1 with no abilities and will therefore loose its triggered ability to be shuffled into the library. Hence it will be put in the bottom.

Without Humility
Both the wheel and the progenitus ability are triggered abilities and will appear in APNAP order. Since it is Panchos turn the wheel ability will appear on the stack before progenitus and will resolve last. Progenitus will shuffled into library.

had it been Joses turn then Progenitus would have been put in the bottom.
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you guys are both incorrect for the question without Humility.

Quote:
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

616.1d Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
Example: Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads “If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it,” and the other is a creature that reads “If [this creature] would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, instead shuffle it into its owner’s library.” The controller of the creature that would be destroyed decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.


According to this, I think the controller of Progenitus would choose where it goes.
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive always belived the progenitus and the enchantment worked as triggered abilities (since you need to fullfill a condition for it to activate). Both abilities trigger at the same time hence:

Quote:
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player,
in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magicman85 has it right. They are replacement effects and Progenitus's controller would be able to choose.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're both replacement effects, actually:

615.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
Magicman85 has it right. They are replacement effects and Progenitus's controller would be able to choose.


Then i learned something today Smile

Heres a question for ya

Imagine I have Dread Return, Golgari Grave-Troll och and another creature in my graveyard. I play Dread return with flashback and sacrifice my two narcomoeba and a 2/2 zombie token to bring back my Golgari Grave-troll. How many counters will the troll have when it enters the battlefield?

Dread Return
2BB
Sorcery
Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Flashback—Sacrifice three creatures.

Golgari Grave-Troll
4G
Creature — Skeleton Troll
Golgari Grave-Troll enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each creature card in your graveyard.

1: Remove a +1/+1 counter from Golgari Grave-Troll: Regenerate Golgari Grave-Troll.

Dredge 6

0 / 0

Narcomoeba
1B
Creature — Illusion
Flying

When Narcomoeba is put into your graveyard from your library, you may put it onto the battlefield.

1 / 1
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 counters, as after Dread Return resolves, there will be 2 creatures in the graveyard. The sacing of the creatures is the cost to put the spell on the stack.
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:
2 counters, as after Dread Return resolves, there will be 2 creatures in the graveyard. The sacing of the creatures is the cost to put the spell on the stack.


not quite its more complicated then that
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh wait, I think I missed the aforementioned other creature in your graveyard. So Golgari-Grave Troll would have 3 counters on it, or am I missing something?
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Grave Troll would have 3 counters on it when it enters.

First you would sacrifice your token and 2 Nacromoebas and they would go to the graveyard. Then you would cast the Dread Return from your graveyard targeting the Grave Troll. The Dread Return would resolve and the Grave Troll would enter the battlefield. At this point, the only creature cards you would have in your graveyard are your 2 Nacromoebas and the creature you originally had in your graveyard.

The Narcomoebas would stay in your graveyard because they went to the graveyard from the battlefield, not from your library.

Quote:
108.2. When a rule or text on a card refers to a “card,” it means only a Magic card. This includes both traditional Magic cards, which measure approximately 2.5 inches (6.3 cm) by 3.5 inches (8.8 cm) and have a “Deckmaster” back, and nontraditional Magic cards, which are oversized and have different backs. Tokens aren’t considered cards—even a card that represents a token isn’t considered a card for rules purposes.
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ill give you guys a hint:
All cards have to be in a zone wich one is grave troll in?

this question, mindfucked the shit out of my mates when the judge told us about this particular case in a tourney.


Last edited by mysticism on Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you cast Dread Return, paying it's flashback cost, this sends the 2 Narcomeba to the graveyard and the one token to god-knows-where. When Dread Return resolves, Golgari Grave-Troll returns to the battlefield. When this happens, Golgari Grave-Troll's ability checks the graveyard and sees 3 creatures.
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