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The Rules Workshop


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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject: The Rules Workshop Reply with quote

Attention Moderators: If you feel this thread belongs elsewhere (like Other - Magic), feel free to move it.

This thread is a place for people seeking to better understand the rules of the game. The premise is simple, I will ask a rules question and then the first person to answer the question correctly gets to ask the next.

Make sure to go as far in-depth as you can, so everyone can learn as much as possible.

Everyone got it? Let's do this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I attack with a Spikeshot Elder, Goblin Chieftian, and Goblin Wardriver. My opponent has a Vengevine. Before blockers, I use Spikeshot Elder's ability targetting Vengevine. In response, my opponent casts Doom Blade targetting Spikeshot Elder. What happens?

edit: Images removed to make the thread less annoying. Just use oracle text from now on.


Last edited by AppleofEris on Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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IkeReilly



Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ability resolves, using Last Known Information about spikeshot elder, it was a 3/3, hence dealing three damage. The better play would have been to kill the chieftain, making it a 2/2 and saving the vengevine
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Pushover



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If battle cry has already been resolved, then spikeshot is a 3/2, and so the last known information is used, dealing 3 damage to vengevine.

Ike is correct except spikeshot is 3/2. (and if the chieftain dies it is 2/1)

In general the way to explain cards is to copy the oracle text. Such as:

Spikeshot Elder - R
Creature Goblin Shaman
1RR: Spikeshot Elder deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.
1/1

Just saves room, but card pictures work as well, unless they are old cards that the oracle text is completely different (illusionary mask)
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, that was probably too easy for you guys. Ike, you get to ask the next rules question since you got the idea right but stumbled slightly on the Battlecry mechanic.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone disappears from the thread, someone else can feel free to throw out another question. No real order is needed, but for the sake of clarity, let's try to answer and discuss one question at a time.
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IkeReilly



Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I control Chalice of the Void with 1 charge counter on it, my opponent casts Shattering Spree and using the replicate ability once, both targetting the chalice, what happens?

Chalice of the Void
Artifact, XX
Chalice of the Void enters the battlefield with X charge counters on it.

Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.

Shattering Spree
Sorcery, R (1)
Replicate {R} (When you cast this spell, copy it for each time you paid its replicate cost. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

Destroy target artifact.
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Pushover



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original spell gets countered but the copy resolves, destroying Chalice. The player cast the original spell, but the copy just appeared on the stack.
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IkeReilly



Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct, bobbob gets to ask the next question
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Pushover



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I have a Humility in play, and I activate a Mishra's factory, what is its P/T? What if I use Elspeth, Knight Errant's +1 ability on it? Does it gain flying?
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mishra's Factory is a 2/2. The two continuous effects are applied in timestamp order as they are both in layer 7b. The activated ability has the later timestamp, so it sets the P/T last. Elspeth's ability functions in layer 7c which is later than humility, so the factory becomes a 5/5. Since Elspeth also has a later timestamp in layer 6, Mishra's Factory has flying.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elspeth's activated ability, rather.
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Pushover



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, pg8 can ask the next question.
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blitzer2k7



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 412

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Player A has a Hive Mind in play. Player B has a Vengevine, Primeval Titan, and Obstinate Baloth in play. Player A plays Comet Storm for 3 and paying an extra 2 to target Vengevine, Primeval Titan, and Obstinate Baloth. Player B in response plays Vines of Vastwood with kicker on Vengevine. What happens and what creatures, if any, go to the graveyard?

I know its not my turn to ask but I wanted to see someone's thoughts. Smile enjoy.
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Abydos1



Joined: 30 May 2011
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blitzer2k7 wrote:
Player A has a Hive Mind in play. Player B has a Vengevine, Primeval Titan, and Obstinate Baloth in play. Player A plays Comet Storm for 3 and paying an extra 2 to target Vengevine, Primeval Titan, and Obstinate Baloth. Player B in response plays Vines of Vastwood with kicker on Vengevine. What happens and what creatures, if any, go to the graveyard?

I know its not my turn to ask but I wanted to see someone's thoughts. Smile enjoy.


Comet Storm goes on the stack targeting all 3 creatures, Player B copies Comet Storm and can target Player A, Vengevine & Primeval Titan (or himself). Vines of Vastwood goes on the stack targeting Vengevine, Player A copies it and targets Vengevine. 1st Vines resolves giving Vengevine +4/+4 and the second Vines gets countered. Comet Storm resolves doing 3 to Player A & Primeval Titan (or Player B); Vengevine can't be targeted by this one. Second Comet Storm resolves doing 3 to Primeval Titan, Obstinate Baloth and Vengevine.

Player A takes 3 damage, Obstinate Baloth takes 3 damage, Vengevine takes 3 damage but gets +4/+4 and either Primeval Titan is killed (6 damage) or it takes 3 and Player B takes 3.

Hive Mind copies the effects from extra costs like the kickers. Hive Mind is mandatory so Player B has to copy it with 3 unique targets. Player A keeps the Vines targeting the same creature since then only one will resolve (the other gets countered by the first Vines). Player B has the option of killing his Titan or taking the additional 3 damage himself.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blitzer2k7 wrote:
Player A has a Hive Mind in play. Player B has a Vengevine, Primeval Titan, and Obstinate Baloth in play. Player A plays Comet Storm for 3 and paying an extra 2 to target Vengevine, Primeval Titan, and Obstinate Baloth. Player B in response plays Vines of Vastwood with kicker on Vengevine. What happens and what creatures, if any, go to the graveyard?


Note:

AP - Active Player (Player A)
NAP - Non-Active Player (Player B)

Cards:

Hive Mind {5U} |Enchantment| Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, each other player copies that spell. Each of those players may choose new targets for his or her copy.

Vengevine {2GG} |Creature Elemental| Haste / Whenever you cast a spell, if it's the second creature spell you cast this turn, you may return Vengevine from your graveyard to the battlefield. 4/3

Primeval Titan {4GG} |Creature Giant| Trample / Whenever Primeval Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. 6/6

Obstinate Baloth {2GG} |Creature Beast| When Obstinate Baloth enters the battlefield, you gain 4 life. / If a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Obstinate Baloth, put it onto the battlefield instead of putting it into your graveyard. 4/4

Vines of Vastwood {G} |Instant| Kicker G (You may pay an additional G as you cast this spell.) / Target creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control this turn. If Vines of Vastwood was kicked, that creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.

Comet Storm {XRR} |Instant| Multikicker 1 (You may pay an additional 1 any number of times as you cast this spell.) / Choose target creature or player, then choose another target creature or player for each time Comet Storm was kicked. Comet Storm deals X damage to each of them.

---

Interaction

AP plays Comet Storm, for X=3 and kicker targetting Vengevine, Primeval Titan and Obstinate Baloth.

Hive Mind's triggered ability triggers and the trigger to copy Comet Storm is put on the stack.

AP passes priority.

NAP plays Vines of Vastwood with kicker targetting Vengevine.

Hive Mind triggered ability triggers and the trigger to copy Vines of Vastwood is put on the stack.

NAP passes priority.

AP passes priority.

Top object of the stack resolves.

Hive Mind trigger to copy Vines of Vastwood resolves.

AP puts a copy of Vines of Vastwood with kicker is put on the stack. AP chooses not to charge the target. The copy remains targetting Vengevine.

A spell or abilty has resolved, AP gains priority.

AP passes priority.

NAP passes priority.

Top object of the stack resolves.

AP's copy of Vines of Vastwood resolves. Vengevine gets +4/+4 and cannot be targetted by spells NAP controls.

A spell or abilty has resolved, AP gains priority.

AP passes priority.

NAP passes priority.

Top object of the stack resolves.

NAP's Vines of Vastwood resolves. This spell is targetting Vengevine. However, Vengevine is an illegal target for NAP's Vines of Vastwood. All targets are illegal. The spell is countered by game rules.

A spell or abilty has resolved, AP gains priority.

AP passes priority.

NAP passes priority.

Top object of the stack resolves.

Hive Mind's triggered ability to put a copy of Comet Storm on the stack resolves.

NAP puts a copy of Comet Storm on the stack (copying x=3 and originally targetting Vengevine, Primeval Titan and Obstinate Baloth.) NAP decides not to change the illegal target of Vengevine. NAP changes the target from Primeval Titan to targetting AP. NAP decides to change the target from Obstinate Baloth to NAP.

A spell or abilty has resolved, AP gains priority.

AP passes priority.

NAP passes priority.

Top object of the stack resolves.

NAP's Comet Storm resolves. Vengevine is an illegal target so takes no damage. AP takes 3 damage. NAP takes 3 damage.

A spell or abilty has resolved, AP gains priority.

AP passes priority.

NAP passes priority.

Top object of the stack resolves.

AP's Comet Storm (x=3 targetting Vengevine, Primeval Titan and Obstinate Baloth) resolves. Vengevine takes 3 damage (it is a legal target for AP), Primeval Titan takes 3 damage and Obstinate Baloth takes 3 damage.

---

Result

AP takes 3 damage.

NAP takes 3 damage.

No creatures die but all have 3 damage marked on them.

Vengevine gets +4/+4 and cannot be the target of spells or abilities from NAP.
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