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Illicit Auction and Platinum Angel


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This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Magic Rulings
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:56 am    Post subject: Illicit Auction and Platinum Angel Reply with quote

So here's a weird rules question I saw:

There's a Platinum Angel on the battlefield. Now PlayerA casts Illicit Auction targetting it. It resolves, the players each bid life past their life total. So both players reach negative lifetotals after Illicit Auction resolved completely, but one of them will have the "don't lose" effect of Platinum Angel. The result is: whoever bids last wins the game. But who bids last ? What is the result of the situation?
I couldn't find a solid answer yet.

Illicit Auction {3RR} |Sorcery| Each player may bid life for control of target creature. You start the bidding with a bid of 0. In turn order, each player may top the high bid. The bidding ends if the high bid stands. The high bidder loses life equal to the high bid and gains control of the creature.

Platinum Angel {7} |Artifact Creature -- Angel| 4/4. Flying / You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game. ∑
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BigShowDT



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i am reading it right, only the player that wins the bid loses the life...
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Vulpi



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bid is not the same than pay life, so you can bid more life than you have rigth ?

can the situation b resolved ? since the life lost and the angel effect happens at same time to whoever wins the bid

and while you cant say infinite for life bid, the auction will be won by the player able to say the greatest number. I bid 4 tera lifes ?
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah right, only one player loses the life. But if both players want to have that Platinum Angel, who gets it ?
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would probably end in a draw. Mr. Green
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

714.3. Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.

Maybe this rule applies, however the same game-state isn't reached multiple times. The example refers to 2 activated abilities
0:Target creature gains flying until end of turn
0: target creature loses flying until end of turn
controlled by 2 different players. -> creature doesnt get flying.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The game woud not end in a draw, as bidding on Illicit auction is not a mandatory action.

Quote:
104.4b If a game thatís not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a ďloopĒ of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action donít result in a draw.


I would have thought that the rules for shortcuts would have been appropriate here but a player must have priority to suggest a shortcut and a player must have priority when the shortcut ends:

Quote:
714.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It canít include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.


Obviously, no player has priority during the resolution of Illicit Auction.

Therefore, as there is no way to use the rules on shortcuts, player must go through the entire series of actions until one player wins the auction, possibly running down time on the round.
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But is that a satisfying answer for a rated match?
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caesarthehun



Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what farseer might have been suggesting (especially due to his comment at the end of the post) is that the players in such a situation would both be choosing to enter this situation.

So in a rated match the best that both players would be aiming for would be a draw.

Thus, because it probably would just draw out the match, stalling seems the only purpose of starting the aforementioned bidding war.[/i]
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CMA-Flippi wrote:
But is that a satisfying answer for a rated match?


Not a satisfying answer but it appears to be the correct one based on my reading of the comp rules.

caesarthehun wrote:
both players would be aiming for would be a draw.


That is not necesarily the case.

If one player had no way of dealing with Platinum Angel, then that player would have no choice to but keep bidding to have any chance of winning the game.


Last edited by Farseer on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are my thoughts on this conundrum:

If player A controls the Platinum Angel that he is targeting with Illicit Auction, I would begin to investigate his motives for possible stalling (especially if he's up a game). It seems as though the only reason you would make a play like that is to run out the clock, which is against the rules.

If player B controls the Angel, I would ask each player to write down (hidden from view, with a maximum of 5 seconds to write) the maximum amount of life that they would bid to gain control of the Angel (in the form of an integer). The highest bidder loses life equal to the opponent's bid +1, and gains control of PA. In the event they tied (which would be unlikely), they repeat the process.


Last edited by niknight on Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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CrushU
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm almost certain that you can't bid more life than you have... That's what would make the most sense. The problem is that it doesn't say 'pay' life, it says 'lose' life. Let's see what Gatherer says...

"10/4/2004 This is a life loss and not a life payment so you can bid more life than you have."

Damnit.

Farseer's is the most technically correct; It ends when players stop bidding, but there is no requirement for them to do so. From what I can see, Flippi, 714.3 doesn't apply, as we are not resulting in the same game state being reached multiple times. (Board state is unchanged while this is resolving, and different amounts of life are being bid.) However, I believe that if you were to ask a Head Judge, whose word is law for that tournament, they would probably cite That rule and say that the Active Player must lose the auction once bidding goes > life totals.

Essentially this is one of the most difficult questions, as there appears to be no rule for this, thus it's up to the judge ruling at the time. :/

Amusingly it would be whoever says the bigger number... Although I think all intelligent magic players would just say 'Whatever he said plus one.'
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your second reason doesn't make much sense, since each player would just write a bunch of nines, making the faster writing player the winner of the game. I don't think any magic game should be won by that cause... Laughing
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know if this is a judges only thread but I wanted to add something. If it is, just delete my post. I think this: if you cant allow the game to end in a draw, you should use some common sense solution, for example: some APNAP order based solution, or giving some kind of advantage either to the original controller (you know, he is trying to steal my creature!) or the caster of the spell (hey dude I paid 5 mana for that steal). I found some threads on the internet and that was the best conclusion I could make. Here are the threads:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=266224

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27047269/Illicit_auction_platinum__angel=draw

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/21874633/Taking_this_up_a_notch__New_Loop_Problem

http://www.rarityguide.com/forums/magic-rules-questions/11664681-platinum-emperion-rulings-faq-bid-life-magic.html

Hope it helps.
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynolf wrote:
Your second reason doesn't make much sense, since each player would just write a bunch of nines, making the faster writing player the winner of the game. I don't think any magic game should be won by that cause... Laughing



The reason for this is based off of a few assumptions:

1. That a player is not engaging in this action simply to waste round time (which is stalling, by definition).

2. The players don't want to agree to draw the game (or they would have done so already).

3. Since they don't want to draw the game, they need a quick, easy and relatively fair way of solving the issue.

In this situation, there are two possible ways to solve this. You can either follow a form of the loop rule, which will result in the nonactive player always taking control of the permanent... or you can do hidden bids (which is not what the card says to do, but this is an extreme corner case).
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