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Boros - not your average Mindless Aggro.dec!


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JA0



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

think its worth fitting in inkmoth nexus in the mana base? mainly just for a 1/1flying blocker?
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not going to need 3 journey maindeck, so that can be the cut.

I think the consensus of people who play boros is that Bonehoard is a 1 of in the deck no matter what now.

I think Koth is just better than hero.

You aren't going to want signal pest over a spikeshot I don't think.

Your deck is weak to UB control because you have less burn than the other versions, and no maindeck Koth. I would guess that matchup would be about 35% for you, especially if they're making the switch from sea gate oracle to vampire knighthawk.

Sword of Feast and Famine is probably something you should play in your 75... Great synergy with spikeshot, burn (mainly burst lightning which you do not play) and Koth.

I think a move from the "uber-fast" to a bit more midrange is the call with the new more powerful equipment you get in the new set. I'd rather not peeter out with terrible cards like adventuring gear and have great mid-late game effects like bonehoard and the other sword.

EDIT: Never play a sorcery that does the same thing a creature does in an aggro deck. Divine offering/ revoke should just be manic vandal or the new Leonin WW 2/2.

Refraction trap is excellent in the mirror and against slagstorms, etc. I'd run 4 probably.
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P_P4E wrote:
You're not going to need 3 journey maindeck, so that can be the cut.
First you advise removing the only maindeck answer to a problem creature with power 4 or greater.

Quote:
I think the consensus of people who play boros is that Bonehoard is a 1 of in the deck no matter what now.
I think that is a load of crap. No self-respecting Boros player would dilute their 4cc slot with an equipment card, least of all one as lackluster as that.

Quote:
I think Koth is just better than hero.
And you might be right. He explained why he's testing Hero, but also said that comparing them like that was pointless because they serve different purposes.

Quote:
You aren't going to want signal pest over a spikeshot I don't think.
Technically, he didn't replace a spikeshot with a pest. He dropped two cards and added three. While I agree that the extra spikeshot would be better than the singleton pest, I'd probably just drop the pest and call it 60.

Quote:
Your deck is weak to UB control because you have less burn than the other versions, and no maindeck Koth. I would guess that matchup would be about 35% for you, especially if they're making the switch from sea gate oracle to vampire knighthawk.
MAKING UP NUMBERS. Also, he has exactly as much burn as the versions the pros ran. He put the decklists in the OP.

Quote:
Sword of Feast and Famine is probably something you should play in your 75... Great synergy with spikeshot, burn (mainly burst lightning which you do not play) and Koth.
He also doesn't run Koth, and his list presently only has two Spikeshots. Also, Feast and Famine is pure win-more in this deck. Body and Mind makes more critters.

Quote:
I think a move from the "uber-fast" to a bit more midrange is the call with the new more powerful equipment you get in the new set. I'd rather not peeter out with terrible cards like adventuring gear and have great mid-late game effects like bonehoard and the other sword.
Adventuring gear is one of the things that makes the deck good. Look at the abilities of 8 of his 12 staple creatures. Then look at the ability on Adventuring Gear. Then look at all the fetchlands in the deck. THAT'S WHAT IT DOES. Also, suggesting that a deck that wants to win BEFORE the mid-late game adds some cards that give it a strong mid-late game is pure idiocy.

Quote:
EDIT: Never play a sorcery that does the same thing a creature does in an aggro deck. Divine offering/ revoke should just be manic vandal or the new Leonin WW 2/2.
A WW costed creature in a fast aggro deck that wants a turn 1 mountain is a terrible, terrible idea, and a 3cc 2/2 shatter is also a terrible idea. Those little 1R goblins that blow up an artifact if the 1 was green, now..THOSE I would run over Revoke. If they weren't from Ravnica.

Quote:
Refraction trap is excellent in the mirror and against slagstorms, etc. I'd run 4 probably.
I have no comment here because I know what none of those cards do.

Edited in a cruel dissection.

Did you read anything in there besides the decklist? He explained, using logic laid out by better players than him before he ever used it, exactly why Adventuring Gear is in and why a WW creature is not.

Edit: in fairness, this post was no more useful than his. Arguably less, in point of fact. At least he stated his opinions, even if he stated them as if they were common knowledge, or even fact.

Anyway, I think this is a good thread and, while not really a primer, still an informative read. If standard could hold my attention, I'd probably enjoy playing the deck. It has enough of a combo-y edge to amuse me more than your average aggro deck.

Unfortunately, I've been away from Magic far too long to make informed decisions on card choices. The list looks solid, though I do have to question whether the singleton Pest is worth the 61st slot.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thedarkness wrote:
P_P4E wrote:
You're not going to need 3 journey maindeck, so that can be the cut.
First you advise removing the only maindeck answer to a problem creature with power 4 or greater.

Quote:
I think the consensus of people who play boros is that Bonehoard is a 1 of in the deck no matter what now.
I think that is a load of crap. No self-respecting Boros player would dilute their 4cc slot with an equipment card, least of all one as lackluster as that.

Quote:
I think Koth is just better than hero.
And you might be right. He explained why he's testing Hero, but also said that comparing them like that was pointless because they serve different purposes.

Quote:
You aren't going to want signal pest over a spikeshot I don't think.
Technically, he didn't replace a spikeshot with a pest. He dropped two cards and added three. While I agree that the extra spikeshot would be better than the singleton pest, I'd probably just drop the pest and call it 60.

Quote:
Your deck is weak to UB control because you have less burn than the other versions, and no maindeck Koth. I would guess that matchup would be about 35% for you, especially if they're making the switch from sea gate oracle to vampire knighthawk.
MAKING UP NUMBERS. Also, he has exactly as much burn as the versions the pros ran. He put the decklists in the OP.

Quote:
Sword of Feast and Famine is probably something you should play in your 75... Great synergy with spikeshot, burn (mainly burst lightning which you do not play) and Koth.
He also doesn't run Koth, and his list presently only has two Spikeshots. Also, Feast and Famine is pure win-more in this deck. Body and Mind makes more critters.

Quote:
I think a move from the "uber-fast" to a bit more midrange is the call with the new more powerful equipment you get in the new set. I'd rather not peeter out with terrible cards like adventuring gear and have great mid-late game effects like bonehoard and the other sword.
Adventuring gear is one of the things that makes the deck good. Look at the abilities of 8 of his 12 staple creatures. Then look at the ability on Adventuring Gear. Then look at all the fetchlands in the deck. THAT'S WHAT IT DOES. Also, suggesting that a deck that wants to win BEFORE the mid-late game adds some cards that give it a strong mid-late game is pure idiocy.

Quote:
EDIT: Never play a sorcery that does the same thing a creature does in an aggro deck. Divine offering/ revoke should just be manic vandal or the new Leonin WW 2/2.
A WW costed creature in a fast aggro deck that wants a turn 1 mountain is a terrible, terrible idea, and a 3cc 2/2 shatter is also a terrible idea. Those little 1R goblins that blow up an artifact if the 1 was green, now..THOSE I would run over Revoke. If they weren't from Ravnica.

Quote:
Refraction trap is excellent in the mirror and against slagstorms, etc. I'd run 4 probably.
I have no comment here because I know what none of those cards do.

Edited in a cruel dissection.

Did you read anything in there besides the decklist? He explained, using logic laid out by better players than him before he ever used it, exactly why Adventuring Gear is in and why a WW creature is not.

Edit: in fairness, this post was no more useful than his. Arguably less, in point of fact. At least he stated his opinions, even if he stated them as if they were common knowledge, or even fact.

Anyway, I think this is a good thread and, while not really a primer, still an informative read. If standard could hold my attention, I'd probably enjoy playing the deck. It has enough of a combo-y edge to amuse me more than your average aggro deck.

Unfortunately, I've been away from Magic far too long to make informed decisions on card choices. The list looks solid, though I do have to question whether the singleton Pest is worth the 61st slot.


Those were my opinions.

How the HELL is bonehoard lackluster? It's literally the best thing you can cast post-wrath or black sun zenith. It's effect is the same later in the game as an adventuring gear would be, but more than likely it's better.

You're the one talking about winning in the early game and saying cutting journey is a mistake. Every single boros player ive ever talked to said journey sits in your hand a majority of the time. Thus, 2 I think would be a better number than 3.

A lot of the version run burst lighting. He pulled 4 lists up and magically only 1 ran it. I'd say more list run it than don't.

Nice last paragraph. You've been away from magic yet you can make a detailed rebuttal to a post I made TRYING TO HELP THE GUY OUT.

Also, he has luminarch ascension in his sideboard, but playing something that is WW is bad. That card is only worth the spot if you're making 2 a turn, and even then I would think you would want anything else instead of it. UW control is running squad hawk, UB has vampire knighthawk, and even valakut might be running the new 2/1 for 1G. That card is purely a gamble when you can just play something that is for sure.

How is feast and famine "win more"??? Making your guys "throatless" and also being able to bash through grave titan on the ground makes the card worthy in my opinion. Also the fact that its effect is almost always better than body/mind's makes me like it equally. untapping lands is probably more valuable than a 2/2 bear is, and discarding against valakut or whatever is probably just as good as decking for 10.

Manic Vandals can be equipped, while divine offering cannot. I can't think of a reason to not add 1 mana to the spell with all that upside.
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BlackPen



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think squadron hawk is a must. The truth about equipment in this deck is that it is all terrible, except that squadron hawk tends to ensure you have a dude to wear it. Koth also seems miles better than the red hero. They are actually almost exactly the same. They both provide 4 power haste and both fit the same spot in the curve. The thing is that by turn 4-6, when you are ready to cast your 4 drop control decks/valakut will taken care of most of your dudes with removal and will probably be tapped out because of the pressure you are applying. This lets resolve a powerful spell. Koth will give you the inevitability to end the game, and Hero will get answered. Also the battlecry deal seems pretty bad deck in a deck that's strategy is to make all of it's threats super dense with equipment and landfall (+1/0 is good on a bunch of 1/1 tokens, but not so good on a 4/5 cat).

The idea of a single bonhoard seems interesting. A tutorable finisher might be just what the deck needs.

I've been trying to make the deck work for a while. At first ramp decks were a bye, but then people started to play around mark of mutiny and while I still think the match up is favorable it is no longer an auto win.

Also control match ups are pretty tough (u/w toughest), but a turn 4 koth can steal a lot of these matches where hero would not be able to.
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P_P4E wrote:
Those were my opinions.

How the HELL is bonehoard lackluster? It's literally the best thing you can cast post-wrath or black sun zenith. It's effect is the same later in the game as an adventuring gear would be, but more than likely it's better.
The issue with a lot of aggro decks is that if you play them badly, and sometimes if you don't, they burn out after the first 5-6 turns. The difference I see between Bonehoard and Adventuring Gear is that Boros is a deck based on quick, ideally Landfall-powered, beats. If you drop Adventuring Gear, you would be wise to drop the 0/1 and 1/1 with Landfall and make a completely different mana base. Adventuring Gear is the card that makes most of your critters threats. I would almost always prefer an opening hand with one Landfall critter and one Gear over a hand with two Landfall critters. On the other hand, Bonehoard costs 4 to play and you won't be able to equip it the turn you drop it, it has no synergy with the deck, and its initial scariness is susceptible to two forms of removal that nobody will board in to take out Adventuring Gear.
Quote:
You're the one talking about winning in the early game and saying cutting journey is a mistake. Every single boros player ive ever talked to said journey sits in your hand a majority of the time. Thus, 2 I think would be a better number than 3.
I would rather have one sitting in my hand and not need it than stare down a Grave Titan the whole game, knowing I can't do anything about it. It will take out an enemy fatass regardless of what sword or swords they have on, something that even double lightning bolts can't brag.
Quote:
A lot of the version run burst lighting. He pulled 4 lists up and magically only 1 ran it. I'd say more list run it than don't.
Yes, and of the four SUCCESSFUL lists he posted, there were a total of 3. So what you're saying is, a lot of lists that don't do well run Burst Lightning, so he should too? More or less burn is a preference call, but a playset of Lightning Bolts is not.
Quote:
Nice last paragraph. You've been away from magic yet you can make a detailed rebuttal to a post I made TRYING TO HELP THE GUY OUT.
I figured I'd see this, because..well, it's fair. But Boros in this form was around before I left, and the basic strategy hasn't changed at all since then. Also, I edited in the rebuttal after I edited in the comment about how I'd been gone for a while.
Quote:
Also, he has luminarch ascension in his sideboard, but playing something that is WW is bad. That card is only worth the spot if you're making 2 a turn, and even then I would think you would want anything else instead of it. UW control is running squad hawk, UB has vampire knighthawk, and even valakut might be running the new 2/1 for 1G. That card is purely a gamble when you can just play something that is for sure.
Ascension is in the deck to give him an edge against slow decks if they stabilize. In other words, when he boards it in, it has NO bearing on the early game, which is the only time you want to see a WW costed 2/2 that won't come down before turn 3 or 4 unless your hand is already terrible.
Quote:
How is feast and famine "win more"??? Making your guys "throatless" and also being able to bash through grave titan on the ground makes the card worthy in my opinion. Also the fact that its effect is almost always better than body/mind's makes me like it equally. untapping lands is probably more valuable than a 2/2 bear is, and discarding against valakut or whatever is probably just as good as decking for 10.
A 3cc sword that you can equip as early as turn 4 is not a consistently good answer to instant speed black removal at 2cc. It's only good against Go for the Throat if you don't have to worry about Go for the Throat when you equip it, which is kind of useless. The removal spell you advised cutting down to 2 also takes care of Grave Titans, by the way. Discarding and untapping your lands are two useless effects in Boros. Making a bear every time you smack someone is extremely not useless, and removing TEN potential removal spells instead of letting your opponent CHOOSE one potential removal spell is extremely not useless. Also, against Valakut, hitting ten cards in their deck is almost always better than making them discard any card that they run.
Quote:
Manic Vandals can be equipped, while divine offering cannot. I can't think of a reason to not add 1 mana to the spell with all that upside.
Because I thought you were going to run Manic Vandals instead of Journey to Nowhere, not Divine Offering. I'm not sure how I got that one mixed up, but I was tired. THAT change, I agree with.

Fixed the formatting. Whoops.
Re-fixed the formatting. -.-
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to amend my previous comment on Bonehoard...I somehow managed to not read Stoneforge Mystic until like, yesterday, which makes Bonehoard a LOT better, which is probably news to nobody else. I'm still really not a big fan, but there's definitely not a better tutorable finisher to take its place, so whatever.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

forrest ryan must be on the forums, because he took all my advice. Nice finish!

Ben, the other guy, also took my advice in the form of going a bit more midrange with the deck. 3 drop and 4 drop dudes that hit are are STILL fast, just not kuldotha red fast. Oh and talk about good matchups =)

Act of treason over mark of mutany i don't understand. Also tunnel Ignus I think is pretty lackluster.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
It got addressed, but as a control player, I'd like to reiterate:

More burn does not get you as far as getting a board presence will. Burn is nice as a finisher, but part of the reason that you will be in a position to win with it is because of the density of fast threats.

rw landfall's strategy against control is the classic strategy of holding back threats to keep pressure on and minimize how much value they get out of their wipes. Boros is extremely good at this strategy and running too much burn is counterintuitive.


Burn is how you close the gap. No burn leads to blowouts. If you have things to topdeck, you get people to play different and thats what you need to win playing aggro, since you yourself can't defer from your plan you need to convince the other guy to do something a little different, and that's when you can move in on him. With sweepers that reshuffle, and more of them because of kuldotha red i think a move to more midrange beats is correct, but i would not skimp on burn because, well... its good against aggro AND control.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
Actually reflecting that in 75 cards might be challenging.


the ben guy does it perfectly. I might up the amount of burn by 1 and cut whichever sword is worse.
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XMechaShivaX



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've Been Playtesting with Immolating Souleater in replace for plated geopede. usually one hit with it can spell game over for most opponents.
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XMechaShivaX



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: Lets Go! Reply with quote

I know early on in this forum many discussed the need for plated geopede in every boros deck. This is my list for NewBoros minus the scaly critter. Instead i've replaced him with Immolating Souleater.
The mere chance of draining the remaning life of your opponent is very much needed in boros right now. it can still hit effectively up to turn 4, which by then you'll have souleater in attack mode. Best part is no one sees it coming.


Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Teetering Peaks
5 Mountain
5 Plains
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Smoldering Spires

Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Hero of Oxid Ridge
1 Spikeshot Elder
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Immolating Souleater

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Batterskull
1 Adventuring Gear
2 Journey to Nowhere
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard
2 Spellskite
3 Crush
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Kor Firewalker
4 Celestial Purge

Bolt + Journey, i think is enough stable removal to push your way into the win.
Batterskull replaces bonehord in my opinion. A turn three 4/4 is sick.
Mirran Crusader and Kor Firewalker find themselves being switched in&out alot so that two slot is open for question.

Sword of F&F has been competing with B&M for this slot, it depends on the meta at the time mostly just like the KFW/MC

The SB tries to reach multiple archtypes right now in standard.
Sparkmage combo is great at the moment, with all of the Green right now. "In Response to Equip, Shoot".

Spellskite is a card i could see in base deck if need be.Protecting my creatures is priority one, but it has actually been cool gearing it up and then taking out anything that gets in its way. 4/8 nice.

Comments plz. Its not just aggro, its Boros.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Creatures with +2/+2 landfall are the reason to play boros.
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XMechaShivaX



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W/R is the reason to run boros. not just landfall. best two landfall critters are stepp lynx and cobra. Geopede is to sensitive in the current matagame. the reason stepp lynx is better is because its a turn 2 potential 4/5 along with guide. We all know this. Whats happening is a late game soul-eater is better than a late game geopede.
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XMechaShivaX



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

Replace the Hawks with Geopede.
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