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Mimic Vat & Persist



 
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JSUOversoul



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject: Mimic Vat & Persist Reply with quote

So this question came up last night during a testing session. Player one has Kitchen Finks in play, as well as Mimic Vat. He uses Finks as a blocker in combat, Finks dies, and it did not have a -1/-1 counter on it. The question was, can you imprint the Finks on the Vat before persist happens? Or will persist happen before you can imprint? We thought you could Vat, since Finks does go to the graveyard, so do you just respond to the persist trigger to put it on the Vat? I guess that's the question here. What happens?
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arcannys



Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both abilities (vat and persist) trigger at the same time, then the active player chooses the order those abilities are put on the stack.
If you put vat first on the stack u can imprint, otherwhise, if you put presist first on the stack u won't be able to imprint.

Someone correct me if im wrong but i think its like this.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JSUOversoul wrote:
The question was, can you imprint the Finks on the Vat before persist happens? Or will persist happen before you can imprint?


As noted below, both abilities trigger at the same time. The controller of those abilities decides in what order those abilities are put on the stack. Thus, the controller of those triggered abilities can decide which ability to resolve first.


arcannys wrote:
Both abilities (vat and persist) trigger at the same time


That is correct.


arcannys wrote:
then the active player chooses the order those abilities are put on the stack.


That is not correct.

The Active Player is the player whose turn it is. The Active Player does not determine the order that triggered abilities are put on the stack. Each player chooses the order that each of his or her triggered abilities are put on the stack.


arcannys wrote:
If you put vat first on the stack u can imprint, otherwhise, if you put presist first on the stack u won't be able to imprint.


That is not correct.

Abilities on the stack resolve in "last in, first out" order. If you put the triggered ability of Mimic Vat on the stack first and then the Persist trigger on the stack second, the Persist trigger will resolve first and the Kitchen Finks will return to play.

Likewise, if you put the Persist trigger on the stack first and then the Mimic Vat trigger on the stack second, the Mimic Vat trigger will resolve. You then have the option of exiling Kitchen Finks or you can do nothing and let the Persist trigger resolve and return the Kitchen Finks to play.


Last edited by Farseer on Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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arcannys



Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Abilities on the stack resolve in "last in, first out" order. If you put the triggered ability of Mimic Vat on the stack first and then the Persist trigger on the stack second, the Persist trigger will resolve first and the Kitchen Finks will return to play.

Likewise, if you put the Persist trigger on the stack first and then the Mimic Vat trigger on the stack second, the Mimic Vat trigger will resolve. You then have the option of exiling Kitchen Finks or you can do nothing and let the Persist trigger resolve and return the Kitchen Finks to play.

That's what i meant. Didn't explain myself good anough.

Quote:
The Active Player is the player whose turn it is. The Active Player does not determine the order that triggered abilities are put on the stack. Each player chooses the order that each of his or her triggered abilities are put on the stack.


Ty for the clarification
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JSUOversoul



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the explanation. I figured it was complicated, but that makes sense.
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Explanations are what's necessary for rules questions Smile

Something relevant. If player A has Finks and player B has Vat, then when Finks dies, nonactive player's trigger will resolve first. AKA if it's Player A's turn then you can 'steal' the Finks by Imprinting it. If it's B's turn, no.
This used to come up a lot with Puppeteer Clique v Finks/Redcap in Lorwyn Block.
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