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Ricochet Trap + Thoughtseize


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Tritemio



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:52 am    Post subject: Ricochet Trap + Thoughtseize Reply with quote

1. Can I play Thoughtseize on target player even if he have empty hand? I lose 2 life?

2. Can I play Thoughtseize targetting on me? I must show my hand?
Can i don't choose any card? or i must choose a non land card?

3. the same of 2 but with Ricochet Trap
Laughing
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. yes.

2. yes, you have to choose a card.

3. yes.
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asamodious



Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 362

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me explain a little better then the previous poster.

If you cast thoughtseize and your opponent uses trap. You will have to reveal your hand (it says so right on the card...it doesnt matter that your the one that chooses a card). You will then lose 2 life and pick a card of your choice out of your own hand. This is the same if you just cast thoughtseize on yourself (useful for getting something like inkwell leviathan in the graveyard so you can then cast reanimate or something on it).

If your opponent is casting thoughtseize and you cast trap, He will reveal, lose two life and pick a card.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

can he "fail to find a card"?
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vedrfolner wrote:
can he "fail to find a card"?


You can only "fail to find a card" when two conditions are true:

1. You must be searching a hidden zone (such as a library or hand under normal circumstances)
2. You must be looking for something that could, in theory, not be in that zone (for example, a specific card, or a type of card)

In this case, while 2 holds up (it is in theory possible that there are only lands in that player's hand), 1 does not (the hand is revealed, and thus not hidden). If thoughtseize instead said "look at target players hand ... " you could fail to find a card, since it would still be a hidden zone in that case.
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asamodious



Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 362

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vedrfolner wrote:
can he "fail to find a card"?


Guess my reasoning was wrong...but yes you have to find a card.


Last edited by asamodious on Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asamodious wrote:
Vedrfolner wrote:
can he "fail to find a card"?


No..Since the hand is revealed. And since both players can see the hand, its not a hidden zone.


Actually, it turns out we are both wrong. When using Thoughtseize, you can fail to find a card. From the comp rules:

Quote:
400.2. (...) Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see the cards’ faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to be revealed.

Quote:
701.14b If a player is searching a hidden zone for cards with a stated quality, such as a card with a certain card type or color, that player isn’t required to find some or all of those cards even if they’re present in that zone.


The hand is a hidden zone whether or not it's revealed, and so a player can fail to find cards with a stated quality (such as a non-land card).
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thoughtseize isnt searching for a card you reveal the hand and choose a card, its mandatory
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gypsy wrote:
thoughtseize isnt searching for a card you reveal the hand and choose a card, its mandatory


Good point. I stand corrected.
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Malakai97
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gypsy is correct
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Kienan



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thran_Golem wrote:
The hand is a hidden zone whether or not it's revealed...


It's a good point, though. I didn't know that. Heh, it's hidden even when it...isn't. Weird.
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
You don't understand. "Hidden" is not key in this ruling. It doesn't say "search", it says "choose".


That was a misread on my part - it does say choose, and so you have to choose a card.
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Kienan



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
You don't understand. "Hidden" is not key in this ruling. It doesn't say "search", it says "choose".


And you both misinterpreted my post. All I meant was that it's interesting that a hidden zone is hidden even when it is revealed. I understand that it isn't relevant to this particular instance...it's just interesting, and something I wasn't aware of.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kienan wrote:

And you both misinterpreted my post. All I meant was that it's interesting that a hidden zone is hidden even when it is revealed. I understand that it isn't relevant to this particular instance...it's just interesting, and something I wasn't aware of.


You misunderstand the rule. If a zone is revealed, it is not hidden. The rules says if all cards in a zone are revealed, the zone is still hidden. For example, if you have Future Sight in play and only one card in your library, your library is still a hidden zone, even though all the cards in your library are revealed.
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Kami5909



Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't that exactly what he just said? He understands the rule, he just thinks it's interesting.
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