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Combat damage step


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Kienan



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's more information here. There's a better explanation somewhere, but I couldn't find it. That will answer some of your questions, though. But, yes, it's rather confusing. The stack was tons better, because you could do more with it.

But, basically, you can still cast spells and activate abilities during the combat step, you just can't do it as combat is on the stack anymore (because it doesn't use the stack).

So, during the declare attackers step the active player, well, declares attackers. Then the defend declares blockers. Then the attacking player assigns blocking order (if an attacking creature is blocked by more than one creature). This means the attacking creature must assign lethal damage to the first blocker before he can assign damage to the next one, and so on.

Anyone, once that is locked in you can cast spells again. You just have to do it at the end of the Declare Blockers step (but everything is locked in and orders are assigned, so it's almost as good as it used to be, I guess). After you move to the combat damage you do not get to cast spells or abilities before the damage "resolves"...? Or whatever it does now. So you can still do combat tricks, it's just not as intuitive. Everything else uses the stack, why shouldn't combat?

If you only have one creature blocking each creature it behaves almost like it did before, though.

Sorry if that wasn't a very good explanation...I barely understand the new system myself... Confused You're better off reading it for yourself and trying to grasp it.
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Combat damage step Reply with quote

arielloria wrote:
510. Combat Damage Step

510.1. First, the active player announces how each attacking creature assigns its combat damage, then the defending player announces how each blocking creature assigns its combat damage. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.

This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack? In declare attackers and blockers creatures step players can't cast spells? It say that?...


Combat damage no longer uses the stack. It used to, but not anymore. So this is the flow of combat now.

a) Beginning of combat phase. Players can play spells and abilities before proceeding to the Declare Attackers step.

b) Declare Attackers. Once you reach this step, neither player can cast spells or abilities until you have finished declaring your attackers. Once they have all been declared, tap them (except those with Vigilance). After that, players can play spells and abilities.

c) Declare Blockers. Once you reach this step, neither player can cast spells or abilities until you have finished declaring your blockers. Once they have all been declared, players can play spells and abilities.

d) Combat damage. Combat damage is assigned and dealt. This does not use the stack, and players cannot play spells or abilities before the damage is dealt. After all damage has been assigned, creatures that have been dealt lethal damage will be destroyed and sent to the graveyard. If a creature with First Strike or Double Strike was involved in combat, there is a second Combat Damage step, where the same thing happens. When ALL combat damage has been dealt and creatures with lethal damage destroyed, players may cast spells and abilities.

e) End of combat. Players may cast spells and abilities before moving on to the second Main Phase.
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bantos described it quite well, but I think it's important to emphasize the point that Kienan made. During the declare blockers step, after blockers have been declared but before anyone can cast spells, each player declares the damage assignment order. This generally only happens for attacking creatures that are blocked by multiple creatures.

The player who controls the attacking creature announces which blocking creature will be dealt damage first, second, and so on. When combat damage is assigned, the attacking player must assign lethal damage (see the link above for the specifics of what constitutes lethal damage) to the first creature before they assign any damage to the second, and so on.

This is important because you can still use regeneration and damage prevention effects by casting/activating them in the declare blockers step, since you will already have a pretty good idea of how the damage will be assigned.
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
During the declare blockers step, after blockers have been declared but before anyone can cast spells, each player declares the damage assignment order.


Ups. Well, I got most of it right at least.
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Kienan



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arielloria wrote:
So What happen in this situation?:

My opponent and I have 5 lifes.

My opponent have two 5/5 creatures. I don´t have any creature. He/She declares his/her attacking both. In my declare blockers step, I don't have something so i can't respone with blockers.

But at the end of my blockers step, before damage be assigned, I play Boros Fury-Shield with a red mana. I prevent all damage will dealt by one of this 5/5 creature and my opponent receive his/her damage, but not the other the creature damage is prevented.

Who lose in this case? or who win?


I'm pretty sure it would be a tie, as I know for sure that damage is dealt simultaneously. You'd both hit zero life and lose. I'm not positive, but I'm fairly sure.
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kienan wrote:
arielloria wrote:
So What happen in this situation?:

My opponent and I have 5 lifes.

My opponent have two 5/5 creatures. I don´t have any creature. He/She declares his/her attacking both. In my declare blockers step, I don't have something so i can't respone with blockers.

But at the end of my blockers step, before damage be assigned, I play Boros Fury-Shield with a red mana. I prevent all damage will dealt by one of this 5/5 creature and my opponent receive his/her damage, but not the other the creature damage is prevented.

Who lose in this case? or who win?


I'm pretty sure it would be a tie, as I know for sure that damage is dealt simultaneously. You'd both hit zero life and lose. I'm not positive, but I'm fairly sure.


Seems to me that this would be correct. Since the damage would reduce both players' life totals to 0 at the same time, it would end up as a draw.
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would indeed be a draw. From the comp rules:

Quote:
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 115, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event.


Quote:
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:

704.5a If a player has 0 or less life, he or she loses the game.


After combat damage is dealt, the active player would receive priority. Before that, state-based actions are checked. One such action is that if a player has zero life, that player loses the game. When the state-based actions are performed, both you and your opponent lose the game simultaneously, resulting in a draw (rule 104.4a).
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Taodd
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would not be a draw. You would win. Boros Fury-Shield does damage equal to the target creature's power as it resolves if you pay red mana to cast it. It doesn't cause the creature to deal the damage nor does it wait till the combat damage step to happen.

If both players were at 2 life, the opponents creatures both had 2 power, and you used Harm's Way targeting your opponent and choosing one of his creatures as the source then yeah it'd be a draw because that causes the damage to be redirected. Boros Fury-Shield doesn't work that way at all.

If you're at 6 life and your opponent is at 3 life and your opponent casts a Fireball where x=6 at you and in response you cast Refraction Trap targeting your opponent and choosing fireball as the source then you will both die at the same time because Refraction Trap deals its damage immediately after the source deals any excess damage in the middle of the spell resolving or combat damage happening before state based effects are checked.
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taodd wrote:
It would not be a draw. You would win.


This is what I get for not reading the cards. I assumed that Boros Fury-Shield redirected the damage (like Harm's Way or Captain's Maneuver), but it deals the damage when it resolves, before the creature would have dealt the damage.

Taodd is very much correct.
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Kienan



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I guess I should have payed more attention as well. If you pay red mana for Boros-Fury Shield it acts as straight damage upon resolution, and not damage redirection. Taodd explained it well.

"Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt by target attacking or blocking creature this turn. If Red was spent to cast Boros Fury-Shield, it deals damage to that creature's controller equal to the creature's power."

So when it resolves (before combat damage is dealt) you deal enough damage to bring your opponent down to zero. And really piss him off. Shocked

The giveaway is the phrase "it deals damage"...*feels a little stupid* Razz
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually not a hard situation at all - we just didn't read the card (or at least, didn't read it closely). The key phrase is "it [Boros Fury-Shield] deals damage." Since Boros Fury-Shield is dealing the damage, it happens as the spell resolves (during the declare blockers step in this example).

There are probably some exceptions to this, but in those cases the card will explicitly state when the damage is going to be dealt. If the spell is dealing the damage, and it doesn't specify when, it deals the damage as it resolves.
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chakal-PT



Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi, just one question:

Once upon a time, I was being attacked by a 3/3 creature.. My opponent asked if it was ok to deal the damage, and when I said yes, he played Colossal Might on it, and when I tried to respond to it with a bolt killing the creature, he said that damage dont use stack anymore, and when I accepted to take the damage I have to take it all, etc... Well, of corse I can still respond to it, even after I said that I will take the damage, right?


I'm pretty sure that's legal, but just to be sure...

Thanks for help.
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chakal_rbn wrote:
hi, just one question:

Once upon a time, I was being attacked by a 3/3 creature.. My opponent asked if it was ok to deal the damage, and when I said yes, he played Colossal Might on it, and when I tried to respond to it with a bolt killing the creature, he said that damage dont use stack anymore, and when I accepted to take the damage I have to take it all, etc... Well, of corse I can still respond to it, even after I said that I will take the damage, right?


I'm pretty sure that's legal, but just to be sure...

Thanks for help.


You can definitely respond to the Colossal Might. There are two possiblities - either he played the Might in the declare blockers step, before combat damage, in which case you would take 0 damage, since the creature would be dead before damage was assigned, or he played it in the end of combat step. In that case, damage was assigned and dealt before the Might, so you would only take 3.

Unfortunately, I doubt anyone who plays that way is going to listen to reason. One thing that could help is to use the phrase "I declare no blockers" rather than "I take the damage" ... it wouldn't make a difference to anyone who knows the rules (because as soon as he casts the colossal might any shortcuts you've agreed to, such as skipping to the combat damage step, become null and void), but it might make your case seem better to the ignorant? I think you're probably better off just letting them disconnect, and be glad you don't have to deal with them anymore.
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Kienan



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chakal_rbn wrote:
hi, just one question:

Once upon a time, I was being attacked by a 3/3 creature.. My opponent asked if it was ok to deal the damage, and when I said yes, he played Colossal Might on it, and when I tried to respond to it with a bolt killing the creature, he said that damage dont use stack anymore, and when I accepted to take the damage I have to take it all, etc... Well, of corse I can still respond to it, even after I said that I will take the damage, right?


I'm pretty sure that's legal, but just to be sure...

Thanks for help.


Dang, I was a little too slow, but here's my take on it anyway:

You're totally right, and your opponent was full of...stuff.

Damage doesn't use the stack, true, but that means you weren't even at the Damage step, if your opponent was playing a spell!

It would have gone more like this:

Declare Blockers Step
Opponent: So, you aren't blocking?
You: Right.

Still Declare Blockers Step, (Play spells and abilities)
Opponent: Haha, buffing mah creature!
You: Bolt, bazzam!
Opponent: *Crying*

Damage Step
You: Huh, where's your attacking creature?
Opponent: *Still Crying*

So your opponent was wrong about the part where you committed to the damage. If that were true, damage would have been dealt instantaneously, before anyone could have responded with spells. He can't have it both ways. Either damage is dealt, or it isn't.

I have no clue what he was doing, aside from cheating or being an idiot. Damage and abilities have nothing to do with each other!
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Thran_Golem



Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kienan wrote:


Dang, I was a little too slow, but here's my take on it anyway:

You're totally right, and your opponent was full of...stuff.

Damage doesn't use the stack, true, but that means you weren't even at the Damage step, if your opponent was playing a spell!

It would have gone more like this:

Declare Blockers Step
Opponent: So, you aren't blocking?
You: Right.

Still Declare Blockers Step, (Play spells and abilities)
Opponent: Haha, buffing mah creature!
You: Bolt, bazzam!
Opponent: *Crying*

Damage Step
You: Huh, where's your attacking creature?
Opponent: *Still Crying*

So your opponent was wrong about the part where you committed to the damage. If that were true, damage would have been dealt instantaneously, before anyone could have responded with spells. He can't have it both ways. Either damage is dealt, or it isn't.

I have no clue what he was doing, aside from cheating or being an idiot. Damage and abilities have nothing to do with each other!


You may have been a little slow, but the awesome that this post exudes easily makes up for it. I think the bazzam was the best part.
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