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So, how's the death of Magic coming along?


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Kytep



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: So, how's the death of Magic coming along? Reply with quote

It's been about 6 months since the M10 rules changes went into effect. I thought now might be a good time to ask those who thought this would be the end of Magic, the worst dumbing-down of the game in history, etc., etc., to reflect on how they play and view the game now, and whether they might want to revise some of their June 2009 views.

http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11923

Do the new rules still seem so strange? Did they destroy the game? Is the game less complex/easier now? Are strategies dumbed-down/are "right plays" much more obvious than before? Can worse players now "steal" wins from better players more easily because the game is so much simpler?

My point: Rules in games are arbitrary. Give changes to them a chance before jumping to extreme conclusions.

Thanks,
Kytep
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:47 am    Post subject: Re: So, how's the death of Magic coming along? Reply with quote

Kytep wrote:
It's been about 6 months since the M10 rules changes went into effect. I thought now might be a good time to ask those who thought this would be the end of Magic, the worst dumbing-down of the game in history, etc., etc., to reflect on how they play and view the game now, and whether they might want to revise some of their June 2009 views.

http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11923

Do the new rules still seem so strange? Did they destroy the game? Is the game less complex/easier now? Are strategies dumbed-down/are "right plays" much more obvious than before? Can worse players now "steal" wins from better players more easily because the game is so much simpler?

My point: Rules in games are arbitrary. Give changes to them a chance before jumping to extreme conclusions.

Thanks,
Kytep


I was taking a break from magic when the changes went into effect, gotta say I don't like the combat rules changes, there's an amazing amount of techy plays that I used to love that just no longer work. However I wouldn't say it's dumbed the game down. Simplified certainly, but now you usually have to choose between 2 neutral/bad options rather than being able to blow them out with a sneaky trick. The choice of bad options is why I say it hasn't dumbed it down. In fact the best play may not be so obvious anymore.

I would say that the BEST players have gained an advantage over everyone else, while the good players have been brought down a notch and the bad players up. Your choices now are often related to unknown information, which can be an advantage for someone who is aware of what chances there are of that information favoring one choice over another.
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Lifelink change has mostly caused confusion since the old cards without Lifelink didn't get the errata so now everyone is wondering whether Exalted Angel-life is gained when damage is dealt (it isn't) and what about Rhox War Monk (it is). Bleh.

Manaburn removal is mostly a pain in Legacy and other real formats; I'm pretty sure nobody gives a damn about Standard right now anyways, and effects where manaburn actually matter (LD, Port-type effects, Daze, Tangle Wire, etc.) haven't been on Wizard's agenda lately.

Combat damage is still awkward and new cards neutered by the change just keep coming up. The bigger issue is that the advantages seem to be nil. We have yet to see any of the promised "new design space" being explored.


So all we did was lose a bunch of stuff. Still don't see how it was a least bit productive, but at least Zendikar didn't suck as much as Lorwyn and Alara.
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Shooter
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eldariel wrote:

in Legacy and other real formats;


quoted for the lulz


And combat damage not stacking did add strategy to the game
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shooter wrote:
And combat damage not stacking did add strategy to the game


They haven't exactly printed cards that benefit of the change though. Sacrifice-abilities have been RARE on cards as of recent. And they did neuter a bunch. They promised cards that would benefit of the new design space. About time those start showing themselves.
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Shooter
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, now you need to think with sakura-tribe elder and putrid leech. Before that it was just automatic
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shooter wrote:
Well, now you need to think with sakura-tribe elder and putrid leech. Before that it was just automatic


Aye, but that's gameplay, not design space. And for what it's worth, whether you pumped before or after damage was a relevant decision back then too, especially when dealing with removal.

Steve was more automatic, but...it's still automatic as dealing damage is practically never correct in a deck that plays said card; it plays the card to get a land and delay. There are few corner cases, but those are relatively obvious.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I havent played a game of magic in 2 weeks the only format I have consistantly played since the rules change is MED3, which pretty much as it has very few instants was less effected by the rules change.

M10 sucked, zedikar draft gets very boring very fast (no pun intended) and its amazing the amount of older cards which are completely ruined by the changes, which if u happen to like drafting old sets which I do this is a huge minus.

So has it made magic worse, for me yes, did i ever say it would be the end of magic no. I would just from a purely selfish stand point like to see the game get more complicated as opposed to more simple. But WoTC are clearly not that interested in keeping me happy doesnt mean I cant voice my opinion about what I want from the game.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moral of the story: don't trust a magic player. They're a bunch of liars.
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MotC



Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I miss the old combat. I keep wanting to play something like Momentary Blink for example and it doesnt work anymore Sad
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Kytep: I don't have to read the other posts to know there will be an overwhelming majority of whining. Basically human race is that stupid, we are full of prejudice most of the time. Some people will defend the old way, some people will defend the new way, and others will just wait to see what happens. Let's take another example of this (I just wrote the following text. I quoted just to separate it from the rest of the post):


Quote:
Currently everyone is whining about T2 and Jund, including me, but fail to notice what we have is an unbalanced game because Blue got weakened, and before that happened -let's say during Time Spiral T2- people complained about Blue. WotC gave people what they asked, partially stimulated by their future money incomings, and now they complain.

We have a short T2 because Zendikar is not full yet. That's another reason why T2 metagame is so limited.

Also, if people starts to play (like they have been doing recently) other decks than Jund the metagame will be a lot more interesting. That's what people used to do before, they tried to kick dominating deck's ass. Now we have a lot of apathetic players and I don't think all the blame is on the way the game has changed.


You could and will see those attitudes everytime something new happens in human lifes, societies and species, and -no surprise here- MtG is not the exception.
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeph wrote:
You could and will see those attitudes everytime something new happens in human lifes, societies and species, and -no surprise here- MtG is not the exception.


You remember Ravnica T2s or Mirrodin Post-Bannings T2 or Tempest T2s? People didn't whine about those formats. Why? 'cause they didn't suck. All archetypes were playable, decks were powerful and yet, there was a lot of room for innovation.

Basically, people want from T2 what they get from other formats; option to play multiple decks, and free design space. T2 is very red and very multicolor-focused. That tends to limit versatility.

Whatever you wanna say about the Human Race, you don't see whining when there's no cause for it. On the other hand, unhappy people are loud.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ravnica Standard (Kami-Rav, and TSP-Rav) was the best standard I have ever played in. I have placed FNMs with the following decks during that time: Greater Good/Gifts, Snakes, Erayo Ninutsu, UR Wildfire Tron, UWR Angelfire, BWG Beach House, Scryb n Force, Zoo, RG Aggro, Boros Deck Wins, UR WIZARDS!, Red Deck Wins, BR Aggro/Sligh, Dralnu du Louvre/Teachings Control, GR Snowramp, Solar Flare, BG Rack, Dragonstorm, UG Tron, and UWG Blink. You could play whatever you wanted, and there were always powerful, fun cards to play. Some decks were clear better contenders that you wanted to prepare for, but you couldn't really count anything out. And nothing heavily dominated for too long, at least without having a few weak matchups.

You shoulda been there.
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Magno-
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magno- wrote:
I actually like all the changes, if you just take a moment to sit for it, you might understand all.

People think:
Oh no, this is going to change the game. WOW, I'm so going to quit blablablablablablablabla...

Alright, some tricks got exiled Wink But for new players it's more logical...
I'm so happy that I don't have to judge any M10 pre-release... Gjeez,,, Good luck judges o_O

Well noting changed for me. I still don't have a problem with the new rules and I'm still happy to not have had to judge the M10 pre-release. Wink
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonproject wrote:
Ravnica Standard (Kami-Rav, and TSP-Rav) was the best standard I have ever played in


I agree, especially about RAV-TSP.

Eldariel wrote:
Whatever you wanna say about the Human Race, you don't see whining when there's no cause for it


It looks like you missed my point. Read its upper text again. I was merely describing the way we react to changes, I wasn't taking a position against people who whines. I was just telling the original poster he did as most people should do: wait and see to criticize.

Besides, I never said people whined for no cause, I said people whined in the right moment for the wrong reasons. I mean: people see a problem, mix their personal tastes in and say "Oh shit! Magic is dying because they don't make the cards I like in the amount I would like to" instead of trying to find the right reasons. They lack objectivity.

I also pointed out that we love to criticize... wait, no, that word is too big for what we do... we like to complain and cry without taking our share of responsability in this. People whined a lot about Blue in TSP times and before. WotC has seen since Lorwyn a good chance to weaken Blue and make a lot of money, there you have, just what you asked. I hope my point is clearer now.
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