Volrath's Shapeshifter and replacement effects

lucabil · Joined: 05 May 2008 Posts: 33

This question is not new, but people around do not seem to agree on this subject.

The question is:
If Volrath's Shapeshifter enters the battlefield under you control while the top card in your graveyard is a creature with an ability that generates a replacement effect as those described in Rules 614.1c and 614.1d, is that effect applied?

Me and many other people think that the answer is no, because static abilities only exist on the battlefield (Rule 112.6), so Volrath's Shapeshifter ability does not function when the "enter the battlefield" event happens, hence it cannot be replaced by an ability the card does not have.

Other people think the the new rule 614.12 allows such interaction, thanks to the clause "... and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities ...".

What do you think about this stuff?

blamin8or · Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

I dont know if i understand the question. i think "comes into play" abilities (if i understand correctly that this is what you are saying shapeshifter may copy) are not static abilities, they are triggered abilities that only happen when something comes into play with the ability on it. Since the thing that makes volrath's shapeshifter copy a creature in the graveyard is a static ability, it wouldn't apply until after shapeshifter is in play so the trigger doesn't happen.

lucabil · Joined: 05 May 2008 Posts: 33

No, I was not talking about CIP triggered abilities, but I was thinking about "Enter the battlefield with ..." or the like, abilities that generate replacemente effects (they replace the 'Enter the battlefield' event).
Anyway, your statement about the fact that Volrath's Shapeshifter ability functions only when it is already on the battlefield is exactly my opinion.

But it seems to be wrong ...

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 477

Volrath's Shapeshifter coming into play is no different than Clone coming into play. Their static ability kicks in before any replacement effects do and only after that are they checked for triggered abilities.

blamin8or · Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 11

Clone:
" You may have Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield."

Volraths shapeshifter:
"As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter has the full text of that card"

You are telling me these two abilities function the same? I think it is clear that clone gets any triggered abilities while shapeshifter does not.

"When CARDNAME enters the battle field" means triggered ability.

"If SOMETHING would do SOMETHING then it DOES SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD." this is replacement effect.

lucabil · Joined: 05 May 2008 Posts: 33

Clone and Shapeshifter have obviously very different abilities (the first has a special ability that sets a Replacement effect up, so it functions by definition, the second has a "normal" static ability).

The only possbile reason for latter's ability to function when "enter the battlefield" event happens, is 614.12. This rule was born as 613.12 in M10 comp rules; before that, there was no doubt about this subject: no replacement effect could be applied. Some guru around say that the new rule changes this interaction (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=174297). Probably we have to accept this, but if so, Rule 112.6 maybe should be rewritten somehow.

I asked your opinion, because here I always found guys having a very depp and precise understanding of the rules.

Clariax · Joined: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 33

Clone and Volrath's Shapeshifter do have very different abilities, yes. Clone's ability doesn't get applied before replacement effects, it generates a replacement effect itself. If other replacement effects then apply after applying Clone's you then apply those. This is why a Clone of a Spike Weaver would get the +1/+1 counters.

The game will look ahead to see what Volrath's Shapeshifter will look like in play when determining what replacement effects to apply, yes. But this is for a different reason.