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Why is noone talking about that?


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Sprouts



Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you forget your angel of despair trigger, you deserve to lose, and be cheated too...
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wiltstorm



Joined: 13 Nov 2008
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kibler's opp is in the top 8 of a porffessional magic tournament, dont u think that he shoulda realized his own trigger?
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LordLink



Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm more inclined to say that the half a dozen high level judges watching the game should have noticed.

Kibler just has to wave that around as a defence for why he 'forgot' and he's fine.

He did race a progenitus though, props for that. Shows that tight technical play is important even when you have a board position that dominating.
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xiko



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is not the point, the point is the intent of not pointing it out as the rules say
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CHRONICBL



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are in the top 8 of a Pro Tour and you miss your own trigger on AOD you deserve to lose. They both would receive warnings it is not only kiblers fault.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CHRONICBL wrote:
If you are in the top 8 of a Pro Tour and you miss your own trigger on AOD you deserve to lose. They both would receive warnings it is not only kiblers fault.


Agreed.
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xiko



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukkertind wrote:
I think the bottom line here is that it cant be proven that kibler new the trigger was mandatory, even considering his interview.
Therefore it probably cant be proven he cheated, and therefore by no means he should be dqed (in dubio pro reo).
So looking at it strictly by the rules he also is the correct winner Smile


Yeah it is good to know that we can use that in future tournaments when the oppo makes a mistake.

"I didnt know it was mandatory."
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think everyone should ask themselves, has a really bad opponent ever missed a lot of triggers and you got frustrated and stopped reminding them. im not saying the hypergenesis guy is bad but i dont think there is a person here that has not done this.
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brimstone



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukkertind wrote:
I think the bottom line here is that it cant be proven that kibler new the trigger was mandatory,


I don't think Kibler "new" anything.
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xiko



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gypsy wrote:
i think everyone should ask themselves, has a really bad opponent ever missed a lot of triggers and you got frustrated and stopped reminding them. im not saying the hypergenesis guy is bad but i dont think there is a person here that has not done this.


nope I started calling the judge and the guy got a gameloss on the 3rd time.

edit: like the freaking rule that should be changed tells you to.
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the judge watching the match missed it, it is really hard to argue that kibler did something intentionally.
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Omnomcake wrote:
so because Kibler's opponent missed a trigger he is cheating? There is not a person here who would have done anything different. Whoever he beat has nobody to blame here but themselves...


So I see you're a cheater, too.

ronjeremyjr wrote:
If he didn't know he was cheating then he wasn't cheating. Cheating as a category of infractions implies intent. If a judge asks you how many cards in hand and you say 5, then realize you actually have 6 you haven't committed cheating. You need to intentionally violate the rules to commit cheating. Anything else usually results in a Game Play Error infraction of some sorts.

Please note that I'm not defending Kibler, I'm just saying that unless we can prove that he knowingly violated the rules he hasn't cheated.


Stacking mana is Cheating. Even if you dont know it is. Stalling, too. Not telling about mandatory triggers, too.

-- general:
You dont need proof to find someone guilty of Cheating.
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Welran



Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah that's very good way to win - play angel then "forget" to destroy something then win by DQing opponent Smile
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dv8r



Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 239

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just want to say that I think you are all despicable for being willing to cheat your way to 40k. I would have reminded my opponent in that situation without a second thought. do I remind my opponent about soul warden triggers even if they forget, sure, I'm also happy to call a judge if it happens too often and get them the appropriate punishments so they won't forget in the future.

second, kibler cheated. that's clear. can we do anything about, or more specifically, SHOULD we do anything about it? probably not. the tournament is over, and giving him a punishment after the event is ridiculous. it's a damning indictment of the way the pro tour is run, the event commentators, and the judges at the table at the event, and I'm amost certain not to trust kibler if we ever play at a major event, but it's far too late to do anything about it. I just think it's a shame that it came to this.
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some readers/poster on this subject are not paying attention to the difference between CHEATING that deserves a DQ versus Breaking-the-Rules that deserves a Warning. Maybe this can help guide future posts:

Both players broke the rules- they should get Warnings. Maybe Kibler intentionally skipped on his obligation to 'find' that trigger. That would be cheating...

Superior rules knowledge is supposed to be an advantage in magic, but finding an advantage that is not within the rules is serious misconduct.

Do you think his bypass was intentional or a miss? (note: Kibler is the lead developer for WoW TCG- where almost all triggers are 'may.')

Do you think Papa deserved to lose? (this one has been popular... if he deserves to lsoe for missing angel trigger then SO DOES KIBLER. DUH!)

If you consider Kibler guilty- how do you approach the situation? (i personally would watch like a hawk and anything amiss would get called.) Remember that passed tournaments cannot affect judgement on a player.

Thanks to CMA also- burden of proof is not necessary to DQ. If the relevant ruling party thinks you are guilty- you are guilty. Head Judges can make islands produce green mana if they want. Their judging career will probably not extend past that event, but they could do it. I've had my 4/4 Figure turned into a 1/1 because it's what the HJ thought it was.
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