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Why is noone talking about that?


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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ant900 wrote:
Burton911 wrote:


The only thing what his opponent could do to win there, would be destroying 1 of the N Hirearchs, but he would propably choose one of the MMs anayway.


Actually if his opponent killed ANYTHING but the MM on hypergenesis then he would have won. Kibler only had 3 lands (none of which produced white) and a hierarch. So killing any of those would have dealt with the baneslayer. In addition the other two meddling mages were on firespout and putrefy, both of which the hypergenesis player had in his hand.


Ultimately it may technically be cheating, but I would consider it the fault of the Hypergenesis player for letting his guard down. He mad a sloppy play forgetting about the trigger of his own card, and he payed for it.


I agree with anything you said and like i said i hate this rule, that doesnt make it any better though. Cheating is cheating and should be treated as such, espacally with this stakes. I will say it again, you can just pick the rules you follow.

edit:
Oh and btw, even if the cheating wouldnt have affected the outcome it would have stil been cheating. Want an example?
You cant stack your deck even if you lose after you did it.
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IkeReilly



Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you guys need to reread the coverage, he had three lands and two freshly played hierarchs, opp plays hyper. Assuming kibler has baneslayer in hand, he plays three meddling mages first while the opp only had two plays, so he would be in no danger laying a late baneslayer. It is more likely he drew it off the top and played it with the two hierarchs for white.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And thats where your wrong and why not playing Baneslayer actually was a good play, he didnt played it because the triggers go on the stack AFTER hypergensis resolves. And speaking of coverage you should watch/listen to the finals where they mention that he already had it on hand and didnt play it because of Angel of Despair and then it didnt kill something. (pre Finals). And he actually just had 2 lands in play because if he had 3(before hypergensis) he could cast the meddling mages that where in his hand since he played the second with the second land and attacked for two(the turn before hypergenisis resolved.

Last edited by KeySam on Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Shooter
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

he had forest,hierarchx2 and burnwillows. then he drew temple garden
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Think the thing is you can still not prove it is cheating though it almost ceratinly is.

It is entirely possible for Kibbler to hold back the baneslayer because of despair, his opponent plays it and then gives no indication of a permanent to destroy and as kibbler has switched off now to, he also fails to realise his opponet has not targeted something with the despair. Its not all that likely but it is possible and why I still think they both should have got a warning.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just read that he actually said in an interview after the Pro Tour:

Quote:
1. In the interview after the match, Buehler asked, "So what exactly happened with that Angel of Despair trigger?" and to this Brian replied, "I don't know. He just didn't blow up anything. I don't know why he didn't."


(thanks to Hix360 from mtgsalvation)

Here is what i think what happened:
Kibbler knew about the trigger and knew about that it was mandatory, but he didnt seem to knew that it was considered cheating not telling his opponent to do so. Thats why he talked about it so casual after the Pro Tour. This may mean he didnt Cheat intentionally but he stil cheated, which should still be a DQ. I know it sounds harsh, but not knowing about rules doesnt prevent you from beeing punished, WoTC could still consider this if they think about banning etc...
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a few things you need to know:

hypergenesis upon reoslving passes back and forth from it's caster to opponents and back. once the hypergenesis player drops nothing and neither does Kibler, the spell is done resolving. it is not like calling/checking in poker- Kibler has every advantage in that he can wait for the Greek to stop dropping before playing his bits.

Triggers from Hypergenesis: they are WAITING to go on the stack until the board tells them they need targets. this only happens once hypergenesis is RESOLVED and in the graveyard. active player chooses targets for his triggers, then non-active. apnap order for resolving them, obviously.

since the angel came down and then loads of other bits it's easy to see how angel can be missed. meddling amges are naming their cards as they enter, but angel has to wait for the mess to clear.

the penatlies to each player are not the same. Greek gets Missed Trigger warning, American gets Failure to Maintain the Gamestate Warning. any proof of cheating on Kibler's part would have had to be done on the spot. The Warning can be retroactively given but it cannot affect the outcome of the tournament. Papa should have called a judge the moment they realized it if he wanted anything out of it.

NOTE: there's a judge RIGHT THERE. although we don't table-judge anymore, the judge would have corrected a mandatory trigger situation and warned both players appropriately. the board must have been so congealed as to even confuse the Judge... who's charge is to maintain the integrity of the game... If he could miss it, it's very easy to say Kibler could miss it. anda Papa DID miss it.

For it to be cheating the American would have had to deliberately mangle the board (or speak quickly to confuse a foreigner, maybe?) in such a way as to even obscure the judge's vision. then he would have had to tread carefully to not remind the Greek of his miss while other events happened. and THEN gotten awaya full turn without reminding him.
that's a tall order; manageable- but quite tall.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like i said before kibler actually stated in the interview afterwards that he didnt know why his opponent didnt kill anything with AoD. And he hold Baneslayer to play around it. This means he knew it and i think he should be DQ for that. Like i said i dont even think he knew he was cheating which doesnt realy change anything though.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if a player doesnt know that hes not supposed to stack his library and does he is off the hook?

I dont know the paticular rules here, and i would be glad to know. But that just doesnt feel right. Since when does not knowing protect from the "law". But maybe thats how it works, i honestly dont know.


KeySam
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Tonya



Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a bunch of angry nerds to me. If you play an Angel of Despair and don't use the come into play ability on it, it's your own damn fault. I don't care what the rules are, but if you make a mistake, it's your fault. Kibler doesn't have to sit their and guide him on what to do with his side of the board. His opponent makes his own plays for himself and he screwed up, simple as that. It would be laughable to try and penalize Kibler with anything more than a warning.
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xiko



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He didn't remind his oppo and he did now about the rules. That is a infraction of rules with intent on having an advantage.

That is the definition of cheating to me.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I copy pasted that out of the thread on mtgsalvation just to clear some things up:

Quote:
First of all, yes his opponent messed up. That just opens the door for cheating. And second of all, obviously i cant be 100% sure what happened i have no ability to read minds or anything. I just say the evidence we have at hand strongly suggests he knew about the trigger of Angel of Despair, i mean come on you guys say he played around something he missed. Yes i know you can outhink yourself sometimes it happens to everyone of us. And i explained long enough what i think about the may part. All i realy want is some serious investigation, and i still belive he broke the rules on purpose. Do i know it of course not. But a guy who playes around a trigger and states in an interview afterwards, it just didnt kill anything, seemed to know whats going on. Maybe i overreacted a little bit, hei i am also just a human, i am just angry that noone realy seems to care and think he obviously didnt cheat. I dont get that point of view at all, i think the evidence strongly suggest he cheated, it may be true or not. Investigation should be done and if it turns out he actually cheated, he should be DQt.

I am realy sry if i pissed anyone off, that wasnt the purpose of all this. I wanted people to actually talk about that, because i think its important.

KeySam
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didnt post it i posted in this thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4492203&posted=1#post4492203
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i doubt anyone would remind theyre opponent how to win the game when playing for 40k. it's kinda late to do anything about it anyway.
both players didnt say anything, the judge + additional spotters didn't say anything coverage reporters didnt see it, i dont think anyone playing for 40k would bring it up. obviously kibler knew about it but i dont think he should be dqued for doing something anyone would probably have done.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that could be proved he would br DQed and rightly, however it can not which is the point, a large sum of money is no moral justification for doing anything, In my opinion its a pretty pathetic reason to do anything.
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