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BW Token List


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onecleanceli



Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just curiuos, whats the random o.ring in the sideboard for?
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onecleanceli



Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok i thought so, i was just makin sure
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qwertymann wrote:
What are reflecting pools like in this deck? I've never had mana problems with this deck yet.


// Lands
2 [MOR] Mutavault
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [EVE] Fetid Heath
4 [10E] Caves of Koilos
4 [ALA] Arcane Sanctum
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [LRW] Windbrisk Heights

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [LRW] Knight of Meadowgrain
3 [LRW] Cloudgoat Ranger

// Spells
4 [10E] Glorious Anthem
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [10E] Terror
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
3 [ARB] Zealous Persecution

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [10E] Wrath of God
SB: 3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 3 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [EVE] Stillmoon Cavalier
SB: 2 [ARB] Identity Crisis

This is my list. The reflecting pools just make the sideboarding easier. If you don't look at the side, the maindeck doesn't need Refl. Pools, because there's nothing you can do with it. Plains in their place would also work. But it stabilizes the deck if you are building a Side. Identity Crisis/Head Games(in earlier version) can't be put under Windbrisk 100% of the time. It happens that you have to hardcast them. Pools increase the chance of having black mana. This is the only thing they are in the list(s).
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qwertymann wrote:
Hmm I'd pick them up if I had cash, but I find the deck functionality is fine without them even after SB (though hitting a T2 Scepter post-SB can SOMETIMES be difficult.)

How are the Mutavaults running for you? I personally don't like them in the deck since it needs WWW for Procession.

Well I just kept the manabase. There were times when I had to play Scepter, but now I find it useless. You just want to cast Blossom or Sculler turn 2. Otherwise it's not that good, and you have to keep 2 mana to activate it. Sorcery speed is also not that great. Now the 4 Pools are not that important, maybe worse with Anathemancer in a lot of aggros. I don't want to change the manabase, it's just damn good. Very Happy

Mutavaults are fine. I play 2 of them because of what you said. But if I get Wrath, I still have Mutavault that can hit my opponent. Anthem gives him the bonus, Ajani can put counter on it. It's just good. You can also block a Stillmoon Cavalier if you have to since it's colorless.

Anyway, the Zealous Persecution is just mad. It kills Stillmoon, and you gain a huge advantage after declaring blockers against an aggro deck.
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qwertymann wrote:
Though the good thing about wrath is that this deck can recover from it fairly easily with Blossom plus any other random token producer. Smile

And of course, I always cast Sculler or Blossom on turn 2. It puts more pressure than the Scepter which can easily be cast later.
Now with Dauntless Escort if the opponent casts a WoG, then it's nearly gg doesn't matter what. Also if they can hold you back till a Reveillark is on the table, it can also turn out bad. Blossom is a good card especially when it gets an Esper Charm... Very Happy So I don't think wrath is good for you. Very Happy If you learn how to play around it, then it'll be fine. Maybe you should consider playing Procession after wrath. Before that Blossom, Meadowgrain and Finks grants you good board position.
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qwertymann wrote:
Yeah I'm aware Dauntless Escort is a REALLY bad card for me. Haha.. but I'm getting familiar with the deck and learning how to play it really well.

What are this deck's bad match-ups?

I'd say that with a good hand there's no bad matchups. Maybe some rogue decks that you are not familiar with.

A friend of mine built a monored haste deck with 4 Hell's Thunder, 4 Hellspark Elemental, 4 Spark Elemental, and burn spells. Well it was hard to beat pre side. You have to build a good side, so that the mostly bad matchups turn to be around 55% or more in your favor.

-Kithkins are faster, but Zealous Persecution is nutts vs Frodos.

-Fae is not a bid deal, since your guys are bigger.

-5cc is too slow. Even after wrath, you have better board position.

-Boat Brew is a couple of sh*t. Never seen any Brew beating BW token. Guys are bigger again.

-Blightning is not the best, cuz it has a lot of burn and heavy creatures. If you can play around Fallout and gain life, then it's ok. Side BFT stops their whole deck since the popularity of Everlasting Torment is very low.

-Dark Bant is stopped with Path/terror. You can also chump block their big guys with faerie tokens.

-BG rock/Elves/Doran is a hard MU. It's not that popular nowadays, but the Vanquishers' deathtouch is dangerous. Maelstrom Pulse is the worst thing in your life. Worse, than WoG.

-GW token doesn't run Anthems, so this is also in your favor. Blossom and Zealous Persecution are just gamebreakers.

-Planeswalker control is not a threat. You have a lot of guys, you can play around his spells, flyers slay PWs.

I think that's all. If you have questions about other MUs/sideboarding, just ask. Smile
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qwertymann wrote:
Hmm do you suggest running Puppeteer Clique in SB? There's like, 3-4 Lark decks in my meta ATM.
If so, how many should I run and what should I cut?

I wouldn't say that those worth slots in SB. What kind of Lark variants are they? You don't need it against Boat Brew, Esperlark and I think neither of the Lark decks. You should test my list a bit. It's not far from yours, but there are things which are not similar. My SB is good for control and aggro MUs too, but I don't suggest to copy it, because of the differences between the two decks.
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TugaChampion



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 615

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clique is also good against the mirror, or any deck with cloudgoat ranger. They can't attack with it, and if you play it after you killed their cloudgoat you attack for 5 and get 3 tokens. It's also good against 5cc if they play mulldrifter and broodmate.
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And where do you want to put it? I mean there's no place for it in MY sideboard. Maybe there is in yours. I feel that the Lark matchups are over 60% which is good as it is. You don't have to improve the deck there. The other matchups will be just worse.
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Shooter
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BG elves bad mu and gw tokens good mu?
You MUST be kidding.

Also don't play meadowgrain, bears aren't good in BW.

Stillmoon is also rly bad now with persecution.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

people say knights are bad but i find them to help a lot in so many matchups, especialy if you can pump him up its hard for other aggro decks to attack through it
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shooter wrote:
BG elves bad mu and gw tokens good mu?
You MUST be kidding.

Also don't play meadowgrain, bears aren't good in BW.

Stillmoon is also rly bad now with persecution.


GW token doesn't play Anthems, that's why we have an advantage. Blossom is a game winner, can stand the wrath. We also have Tidehollow Sculler to get the WoGs and Coups from his hand. If he Paths it then we gain advantage again with the land we can search. I've never seen a GW token beating BW with normal hand.

GB Elves however runs Maelstrom Pulse which can destroy:
- All Spirits
- All Faeries
- All Blossoms
- All Kithkin tokens
- All Anthems
- Ajani
It has a 3/3 deathtouch guy for 2 mana which is a bit fast I think. What do you sacrifice for it? Sculler to give him back the Pulse? Kill it with a spot removal spell to let the Liege own you? Or you try to block is with Tokens and never kill it. My bet is to have a Knight of Meadowgrain with a +1/+1 effect on it. And this is why it's a so good card. Double white doesn't matter, it has First Strike, and Lifelink which is annoying.
For 2 mana:
- you gain at least 2 life
- have a great chance to slow down you opponent
- if it gets a spot removal the opponent will have 1 less for Cloudgoat, Sculler or Finks.
Tell me if it's worthless, I think it's not.

I also don't know how do you kill Troll Ascetic. If it gets a hammer/sledge then it's a huge problem for you.

I also run Persecution, I don't know why Cavalier is a bad card choise. Kithkin still can't kill it which is said to be faster.

What do you want to play in the place of Meadowgrains? Dross Crocodiles? Very Happy
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeMoN_RaVeR wrote:
i totally agree with sniper.

The only way i can think of killing troll is hope your opponent is bad and doesn't leave mana open to regenerate him and you kill him with a suprise persecution and after board you play wrath of gods.

Well even if he leaves 2 mana for regen, Troll can't be regenerated after Persecution's effect resolves. Smile

But yeah the only way to kill it pre side is a DOUBLE Persecution. Which means a nice draw and there's no way you can lose at that point.

It's a bit easier after side, but don't forget that Wrath also kills your little guys. Ofc if you run it, then playing around it is much easier than waiting for the opponent to clear the table.
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Alvaro21k



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you kidding?

I agree 100% with Shooter, BG Elves and other rock-like decks (Bant, Doran, etc) are great matchups for the BW Tokens, on the other hand GW Tokens are a very hard matchup, they may not have anthems, but they do have Garruks or Overruns, which can trample over us, they also run Birds/Hierarchs, which can outrun us by casting a turn 2 procession
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alvaro21k wrote:
Are you kidding?

I agree 100% with Shooter, BG Elves and other rock-like decks (Bant, Doran, etc) are great matchups for the BW Tokens, on the other hand GW Tokens are a very hard matchup, they may not have anthems, but they do have Garruks or Overruns, which can trample over us, they also run Birds/Hierarchs, which can outrun us by casting a turn 2 procession

Can you tell me why GB Elves is a great matchup for me?

Maybe I haven't played against a good GW player, but my experience is:
- You get Overrun with Sculler. If he clears the board for it, then he'll have no creatures and you'll have blossom.
- Garruk is a PW, so you can hit it with your bigger creatures. Note that you also have Procession, so you have more flyers that can do the job.
- Ajani's, Garruk's abilities are sorcery speed just like Overrun is. You can kill all his guys using Zealous Persecution in response.

Please tell me if I'm wrong, because here are only a few players playing GW tokens and seems that they aren't that good. We work here in a group of four using four different BW lists. One of them runs Thoughtseize, the other uses Marsh Flitter, there's mine and an other plays 24 lands and Knight of the White Orchid. I save documents and statistics to see how the decks succeed and I have to say that from the last 10 FNMs/nats tests BW tokens had a 90% winning ratio over GW. The reasosns of losing are the points posted above and in previous posts. They were all said by the players running GW.

*Note: I didn't include match results where GW player said he had a terrible draw.
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