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A new format idea?


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GirlWitCards



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: A new format idea? Reply with quote

I love magic, but I often walk away from the game realizing that at it's peak, luck is the dominating factor and the real skill becomes knowing how to better your odds by choosing the smartest deck (and variation) against the meta your fighting. Your then subjected to matchup luck and then draw luck...and THEN play skill takes place. The first 2 factors have always irritated me since I feel they have too much weight on the game and ruin the fun of competitive.

The number 1 issue: land fucks.

Removing luck from the game is both impossible and undesirable, but narrowing it down to more skill because your deck can function is great. Who hasn't lost an important match to a total scrub on account of land flood/screw? It's part of the game, but it happens a lot and it's not the MWS shuffler fault. It's simply averages are too high.

So I was thinking of a casual format that would make the opening of a game more reliable for both players, but without exploiting stacking too much (less power to combo decks the better IMO). My idea:

Have 5 basic land in SB, 1 of each color.

you play the game normal. But within the first 5 turns you may put a card from your hand from your hand on the bottom of your library and swap it for one of the basics, revealing the land of course. You can do this once per turn. As well you may instead take a land card in hand, reveal it, RFG it and draw a new card.

This keeps deck count the same and only increases sideboard the sideboard with land. I don't think any card can access those in any broken manner. This will drastically increase success rate on getting a good mana base to start the game without suffering flood as often.

This is only an idea and may contain flaws! So point them out and offer ideas if you think this is a good concept!
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Ggerg



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

or we could all just play magic.
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GirlWitCards



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ggerg wrote:
or we could all just play magic.
or we could try typing something with intelligent input...seriously...why did you even bother?

I don't exactly expect this idea to fly to life on MWS or the real game, but I would personally like to revise something to use IRL. I dare aim to make a more competitive magic game by eliminating the fluke factor.

The game great and all, but it really loses it's fun in the competitive tier 1 stages since it's more luck than skill simply because everyone is pretty much at the same play level (it's not hard to learn your deck and the other opponents). If I had my dream we'd have a cool since like this and a lot of cards would have multi-options like charms so the game requires more thinking rather than autopiloting.

But this is a very loose idea. I just want input to make it better. I can already suspect the 5 color land may make rainbow decks too strong or maybe some weird combo eludes me.
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Ggerg



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's what i think:

chances are you're a very average magic player. mediocre at best. you've played for a while and finally learned that luck is a part of the game. But you aren't experienced enough to know that there are ways to stem the bleeding (so to speak) of this bad luck. in short, you aren't a good enough player to realize that you can alter your game - the way you play, draft, and build your decks - to minimize the effect luck has on you.

all 'good' players are NOT at the same skill level. i think i'm pretty darn good at magic, but i can name several people i know who are better than me, and i keep improving because i've learned to recognize this.
You outline being a good player as knowing the decks in the format. That's the first step, sure. then you have to actually put that knowledge to use....fully. A great player not only makes the best play based on the cards in play and in both players hands and graveyards, but also considers how to best now in order to make the best use of the cards he will draw later, and how to minimize the effectiveness of the cards his opponent will draw. this is only one example, but the effects of luck are minimized greatly by play skill.

Basically, Skill > Luck in almost every instance. As you become less of a mediocre player, you'll learn to understand that fact and use it to win games, rather than loose them.

also, i'd like to thank a certain someone for telling me how right i am in telling you how wrong you are.

good day
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Socks3



Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion on this one is that it is good in theory, but that in practice it'll lead to too many abusive decks. Some decks could run up to 90% spells, and not have to worry about color fixing one bit.

So, theoretically, it's a good idea. In practice, it won't work.

However, if you are looking for other formats, there's things like infinite mana magic, which limits it to one spell per turn, which work pretty well in my experiance.
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GirlWitCards



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ggerg wrote:
here's what i think:

chances are you're a very average magic player. mediocre at best. you've played for a while and finally learned that luck is a part of the game. But you aren't experienced enough to know that there are ways to stem the bleeding (so to speak) of this bad luck. in short, you aren't a good enough player to realize that you can alter your game - the way you play, draft, and build your decks - to minimize the effect luck has on you.

all 'good' players are NOT at the same skill level. i think i'm pretty darn good at magic, but i can name several people i know who are better than me, and i keep improving because i've learned to recognize this.
You outline being a good player as knowing the decks in the format. That's the first step, sure. then you have to actually put that knowledge to use....fully. A great player not only makes the best play based on the cards in play and in both players hands and graveyards, but also considers how to best now in order to make the best use of the cards he will draw later, and how to minimize the effectiveness of the cards his opponent will draw. this is only one example, but the effects of luck are minimized greatly by play skill.

Basically, Skill > Luck in almost every instance. As you become less of a mediocre player, you'll learn to understand that fact and use it to win games, rather than loose them.

also, i'd like to thank a certain someone for telling me how right i am in telling you how wrong you are.

good day
Listen, I completely understand advanced magic. I'm not FNM level. Yes there is a skill to this game but mainly it all is about reducing the luck factor. You study the meta, select or build the best counter to it. Debate what variations will also effect the meta. Step 1 done (hardest part and takes the most skill actually). Step 2 playing the cards right. Not hard. you generally can make assumptions about what the opponent has very early and you almost go into autopilot 80% of the time. sure there are plenty of skill intensive moves, but honestly they aren't around every game or even in the majority of games.

Refining these is basically the skill of competitive magic. And it's a science. Number crunching etc galore. I fully understand it and if it didn't have a life I could totally invest the needed effort to be analyzing each meta shift. I get it. But I play a game for fun and while that used to be fun and is fun for many individuals, I personally have missed the casual environment in it's slow nature and oddly more thought invested game play. When you got slow games and lots of cards in hand you see opponents think and choose. In competitive, you can generally tell who's probably gonna win within the first few turns based on the openings moves, and mana. Sure it's not set in stone by any means, but you can run a lil math and find most of the time the better opener wins. And lets face it, the game is determined by 11 cards generally from there, not 60. plenty of space for luck to fuck up skill. No matter how much you thin the luck factor out, the game is designed in a way that missing a land drop can be fatal in competitive and it's entirely not your fault a lot of times.

I just want a casual method that removes this frustrating issue. I can build decks that better survive mana issues, but they'll exist no matter what and I like when me and my opponent have a game going and not just one person dominating with the superior opener. I win a lot, but it's really just not fun in competitive spare the moment a new set comes out and the meta is a mess.

Don't assume I'm a casual player or that I don't know what the hell i'm talking about. I know the needed skill and methodology to be a world champ. But frankly it's not fun nor worth my effort.

So point of my rant. Get over yourself. I'm not here to tear down magic for everyone else. I just want an outlet for me now that i'm retired and want to revisit casual alternatives. So why don't you contribute instead of making useless arguments based on misguided assumption? (seriously, who issued all the net nerds egos the days?)
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Socks3



Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With this in mind, and assuming that you are willing to say no to certain decks, I can see this working, quite well. Given your points, it seems likely to work.

Also, have you considered allowing common lands, too? Like the bounce lands from Ravnica, for instance. And what is your take on snow-covered lands?
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GirlWitCards



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Socks3 wrote:
My opinion on this one is that it is good in theory, but that in practice it'll lead to too many abusive decks. Some decks could run up to 90% spells, and not have to worry about color fixing one bit.

So, theoretically, it's a good idea. In practice, it won't work.

However, if you are looking for other formats, there's things like infinite mana magic, which limits it to one spell per turn, which work pretty well in my experiance.
Not a bad idea, and good point. I look into that style.

I'll think a lil more on mine on a way to not have that abuse. Maybe make a new mulligan method instead of things that work over turns. Maybe have it so you can hold certain cards on the 1st mulligan and trade in only the unwanteds. So if you get too much land you can mulligan some to attempt to get nonland cards, but still lose 1 hand count to prevent too much abuse.
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GirlWitCards



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Socks3 wrote:
With this in mind, and assuming that you are willing to say no to certain decks, I can see this working, quite well. Given your points, it seems likely to work.

Also, have you considered allowing common lands, too? Like the bounce lands from Ravnica, for instance. And what is your take on snow-covered lands?
Well my goal is only to have to use these alternative methods when luck has simply gone bad, not every time. We've all gotten bad mulligan after bad mulligan or have a good hand and then the top 4 cards were absolutely useless. So I figure basics because you shouldn't have a strategy invested in it. It's just there as an option to ensure a legit game occurs.

I'll have to run some tests. But I've always wanted to make a format that just honed skillful moves with lots of options rather than worry about whose deck is gonna fuck who first. So maybe even an extremely alternative where maybe your whole deck is nonland and you have a separate land pile and you can draw from either. My only fear here is that combo would be insanely consistent.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen, I completely understand advanced magic. I'm not FNM level. Yes there is a skill to this game but mainly it all is about reducing the luck factor. You study the meta, select or build the best counter to it. Debate what variations will also effect the meta. Step 1 done (hardest part and takes the most skill actually). Step 2 playing the cards right. Not hard. you generally can make assumptions about what the opponent has very early and you almost go into autopilot 80% of the time. sure there are plenty of skill intensive moves, but honestly they aren't around every game or even in the majority of games.

Refining these is basically the skill of competitive magic. And it's a science. Number crunching etc galore. I fully understand it and if it didn't have a life I could totally invest the needed effort to be analyzing each meta shift. I get it. But I play a game for fun and while that used to be fun and is fun for many individuals, I personally have missed the casual environment in it's slow nature and oddly more thought invested game play. When you got slow games and lots of cards in hand you see opponents think and choose. In competitive, you can generally tell who's probably gonna win within the first few turns based on the openings moves, and mana. Sure it's not set in stone by any means, but you can run a lil math and find most of the time the better opener wins. And lets face it, the game is determined by 11 cards generally from there, not 60. plenty of space for luck to fuck up skill. No matter how much you thin the luck factor out, the game is designed in a way that missing a land drop can be fatal in competitive and it's entirely not your fault a lot of times.






this is such a flawed statement i dont even know where to begin. if you think this i dont see how you can call urself an advanced player
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SaTiVa
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

try mental magic
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Socks3



Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mental Magic takes a lot of knowledge on the history of Magic - you need to know what cards do, because you can't just read them. I love the format, but this isn't trying to do what Mental Magic is.
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Manowar



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: the new format : Reply with quote

The new format is a revisit of a certain period of time.
Example: from Ice Age to Mirage.
si sets available are IA AL MI VI WL
so we can reconstruct the best decks of that preiod, and we can redefine the meaning of good decks with new ideas.
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Acid_Christ



Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 799

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wizards made a game for people who complained about mana screw. I forget what it was called. Duel Masters or something?
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Orlandu



Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This doesn't work. You could just play zero land, curve out at 3, and play every aggressive creature in the format. Even if you dictate a certain amount of land, that still gives the aggro decks all kinds of potential because they never have to mulligan.

Besides that, knowing when to take a mulligan is an important skill as a magic player. If you want a game that has zero luck, chess is a great option.
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