Magic-League.com Forum Index Magic-League.com
Forums of Magic-League: Free Online tcg playing; casual or tournament play.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

President Barack Obama


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Other - Non-Magic
Author Message
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll go ahead and skip the "they can't fight for themselves" argument. Because its not like history could give us examples of farmers beating the shit out of extremely powerful militarys(/sarcasm)

but..

Engrishskill wrote:
If Obama really is the humanitarian everyone seems to think he is, he will prioritize doing whatever is the most likely to diffuse the warzone between insurgents there. I also have some unfortunate news for anyone that thinks the war is really costing that much more than maintaining a military complex of the magnitude that the USA does: they are nearly identical. You can call bullshit on me for this one, but I actually researched it for a paper(300 level American History) and a military complex's overhead is what led to the crash of the USSR, despite what some retards might think. paying troops, firing test rounds and maintaining machinery and all the other shit is all part of keeping an army up and running. It all costs money one way or the other. I do not if the charts(everyone loves charts) are available on the open internet, but I saw some and there has been a steady growth in expenditures since the eighties and that is being extremely short-sited. Growth has actually continued since Eisenhower delivered his infamous farewell address.


Yes of course alot of money is being used to keep the size and magnitude of the military. WTF do you think we have such a big military now then we did 8 years ago? Oh yeah, because of the war. You realize this is one of the first wars we didn't have a draft for? So to compensate they had to convince people to join during a state of war. And while this might of been easy in 02 and maybe even 03. By 2004 the whole "never forget" motivation was pretty much forgotten. So why do you think our military kept increasing in size then? Bonuses. The military gave people incentives to enlist, and the biggest of them was money. Whether they used the money to pay for school or health benefits, or just paid it out in cash, it still was being spent.
And while we were fighting two wars(Iraq/Afghanistan) We had to keep dishing out money to get more troops and keep them in.

So what happens when we leave Iraq? Well for starters, we no longer need such a big military. The estimations for the amount of soldiers need "to win" in Afghanistan are about 3/4 of what are in Iraq at the moment. So we can start decreasing the size of the military, when that happens all other costs go down too. Training, Equipping, Supporting, Shipping. It's all related.
Of course none of this accounts for the actual amount of money going into Iraq itself. Hundreds of Thousands(more) of tax payers money getting directly sent to Iraq to train, support, protect them. All of this would be gone too. You see how this saves money now?

Also aside from this, we have alot better methods then the USSR did, including being able to recycle used rounds.

Engrishskill wrote:
So that eliminates money from the reasons against pulling the troops out and assumes that even though it is completely crushing and tragic to have friends and family never come back(I know several people that have lost loved ones and friends), when you take a step back and look at it, there are people that have it a lot worse involved. Furthermore, what is going on right now is called p.e.a.c.e k.e.e.p.i.n.g, basically. That is actually one of the few causes that armies are even maintained for in countries like Canada. I know people that have died on peace keeping tours. Apparently they felt that trying to help against ethnic cleansing was worth fucking dying for. I miss them more than some can imagine, but I respect their bravery and commend them for it almost as much. I really am not a fan of the USA's involvement with the middle East as whole right now or even over the last thirty or so years, but quite frankly it has become a bigger mess now because of them and all the retards that should have been Castrated and given HIV after voting Bush administration the second time.


You'll notice I never brought up anything among the lines of "we are wasting valuable lives over there." And thats not saying we aren't. I am a soldier, I have a lot of friends in Iraq and a lot more about to go to Afghanistan in February. It's sad to see the loss of American lives, but as I said: we don't have the draft anymore and its public knowledge that its a time of war. Meaning if you sign up, then you know the stakes, you know the potential cost. It's the military, and we go where they tell us to without questions asked. So I won't say "we are wasting lives" because most of those people are dying for what they believe in. Sure, I wish we were sending them to a place, that I think more useful (Afghanistan).

As I stated earlier, we didn't go in there to liberate that country. We just end up feeling the need to do it. We went in there to remove their government, which we deemed to be a danger to ourselves. Guess what? That was finished by 02. So why are we still there?
Fact is no matter what we do over there the result will be the same, and thats the second we leave, that country will crash. Whether it be tomorrow or in 10 years. Meanwhile we digging ourselves into a financial hole and pissing off half the world while doing it.
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hank333 wrote:
"Why hasn't any government official come forward?"
I would argue that they some have. Also there are aviation specialist, physicist, demolition experts who have come forward.
"They would never be able to keep it secret."
The Manhattan Project had 100,000 employees and was kept secret from the Vice President Truman until he became president.

I know this is already a dead thread, but people use bad logic to determine that 9/11 could not possible be a "conspiracy". It is all this group thinks. If you sit down, watch the tours fall, listen to the people and what they said THAT DAY if becomes clear that both buildings would not just happen to fall in the same manner, both with near perfect symmetry. And then WTC 7 is even worse, no plane hit it but it fell in under 7 seconds.
There were hundreds of reports of explosions after the planes hit. Look up Alex Rodriguez, he was in the basement and was injured by an explosion, stuck to the same story since 9/11/01. There is little evidence of the offical story. Why hasn't the FBI charged Bin Laden with 9/11? Look at the FBI website, he is charged for other terror attacks, but not 9/11. If fire could knock down the buildings, why spend time wiring explosives when atempting demolition, they could just set the buildings of fire and within a few hours, complete collapse. I am not blaming the US goverment, But everyone should have many more questions about the offical story.(Personally i blame the Isreally Secret Service.)



Ummm... Read http://www.debunking911.com/

It pretty much debunks most of the crazy shit you idiots will spew. Also I looked up Alex Rodriguez and found only a baseball player and a film director....
Back to top
AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze: Defintely the point I was bring up about the whole volunteer thing. I'm actually thinking about joining the Air Force, any advice for me?
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZeMuppet wrote:
Craze: Defintely the point I was bring up about the whole volunteer thing. I'm actually thinking about joining the Air Force, any advice for me?


Air Force is mostly intelligence/tech jobs. It's a lot less combat related and is generally easier training.

My biggest advice is prepare to go overseas. Cause you will. Everyone goes over at least once in their career nowadays, so if your expecting it, its not that bad.
Also look at all the branches before you join. Theres a dozen reasons to join the military, and some branches are better suited for your individual reasons then others.
Never trust recruiters. Talk to like 50 of them but don't let even 1 think you really want to join. And basically find out as much info about everything as you can, because 90% of everything you hear is bullshit.

It's like that Family Guy episode where it says at the end of the army commercial "experience may differ" <--VERY true.
I'm in the army myself, so if you have any questions about active/reserve branches of the army itself, feel free to pm me on irc. (nick == TomW)
Back to top
coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hank333 wrote:
Your right, i misspelt "israeli" but all the rest of my points remain unchallenged. Classic 9/11 truth debunking guys! Attack the messenger, not the message.


I never claimed to attack the message. I am saying that you are a troll, you don't really believe what you are saying. If you did, you would have researched it a lot, and that would have led you to learn how Israeli is spelled. Your mispelling says volumes.
Back to top
AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would definitely want to be in the intelligence field, maybe. I might would just do grunt computer labor; but yeah, recruiters are douche bags. The only thing is I'm just 4 months into a really great relationship (the best of my sad life) with this girl who is like uber engineering goddess. I knew her for 5 years before we got together on July 4, and before then I pretty much worshipped her.

At any rate, I don't wanna leave while this relationship is still getting good (plus the sex buffet).
Back to top
YTheAlien



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coolcreep wrote:

Oh ok, you are a troll. Thats fine then. Anyone who seriously thinks the Jews were responsible would know how to spell Israeli. I feel slightly embarrassed to have fallen for your trolling, as I am the master of trolls.


Actually, I think he is just seriously stupid. Don't put any level of stupidity past racist, crazed 9/11 Truthers.
Back to top
Hank333



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 309
Location: San Antoni

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and it is william rodriguez. I guess spelling mistakes and a bad memory contribute to my lack of crediability. And yes... i am trolling. I am a shitty at spelling. debunking911.com is very misleading. I refer to there atempts to debunk Steven Jones here:
http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm
They mention nothing from his paper, and basicly everyone who did a peer review says something like "this is very disturbing." ect but do not mention the details. Then the same site explains how molten metal could of pooled under the debris after 6 weeks with this:
http://www.highlightskids.com/Science/TryThis/h3TT1004_ironBurns.asp?subTitleID=159
Suggesting that Water+Air+Steel=molten metal. Anyways... i'll stop trolling now.


Last edited by Hank333 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
YTheAlien



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coolcreep wrote:
Oh ok, you are a troll. Thats fine then. Anyone who seriously thinks the Jews were responsible would know how to spell Israeli. I feel slightly embarrassed to have fallen for your trolling, as I am the master of trolls.


As the expert in troll detecting, he is sincere. 9/11 Truth is generally chosen by stupid people, not malicious trolls, as a pet topic.
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
Craze:
Ooooh a vague reference to farmers fighting the power...are you talking about the communist revolution of Mao? Because that is pretty much all there is and China is a whole different beast. The people of Iraq could have risen up on their own and said they wanted change, but America did it for them. Very nice of them.

"Here, now your country has gone from order under a tyrant to a perpetual war-zone, your welcome ^^"

The answer is taking responsibility and doing good with the army for once in the history of modern American military conflicts(besides world war two). In places like Africa and the middle East, dictators and oppressive governments seems to be what works. In numerous speeches and press conferences "Free Iraq" was touted. Time to suck it up and do it now.

I don't know if I can state it any more plainly: I don't give a flying fuck about what happens with American troops as long as something positive happens in Iraq.

Bringing change to a country that had its government forcibly removed is expensive. People should have known that from the start and should have voted differently in both of Bush's terms. They didn't though. Taxes work pretty good. The last time I checked a lot of revenue can be pulled out of alcohol, tabacco and gaming.

Tough shit: your country made a commitment to an extremely difficult goal and enjoy your tour in Trashghanistan.


We weren't the only military to invade Iraq and remove Saddam from power. Yet we seem to be the only ones still there "taking responsibility" for it. WHILE most of the world criticizes us for it!!!
Fuck that, we finished what we set out to do, and now its time to leave. You may not care about the American lives/money, but I do and as does a lot of people. And thankfully we can start withdrawing now.
Back to top
CalebD
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"John McCain stood up to mainstream republicans when he was a CONGRESSMAN, before even becoming a senator. In the senate he worked with democrats almost as much as republicans in his first term, and yet he managed to become the republican nominee. If Obama is willing to sacrifice what he believes in to advance in his party, do we really want him as president? Also, every senator has 1 vote, being new doesn't mean he has less power."

The thing is, Obama never sacrificed what he believed in. McCain did, on multiple topics (see torture.)

And there are power differences in the senate. A good American government class will show you that a good deal of it is political favors, that's really the only way anything ever gets passed. If you vote against your party, you lose the ability to ask those favors, and you end up as viable for presidency as Russ Feingold (though I love the guy.) When Obama didn't want to vote with his party, he voted "present." This wasn't cowardice, it was good politics. I can't believe some people don't realize Obama is a good politician!

Yes, McCain has gone against his party more than Obama has. Look at what good it did him! He was the sacrificial lamb the party in power puts up every eight years to be slaughtered by the opposition. American's are fickle, they party switch after they get sick of whoever is in charge. It might hurt you to hear this, but the GOP never expected McCain to win, not even when the Dems didn't have a candidate yet.

Engrishskill, answer this question for me please.

When should we leave Iraq?

If we're not going to leave if they have a giant surplus, a government, a US-trained Iraqi police force, and a decrease in violence, when are we going to leave? Is Halliburton not rich enough yet?

"I also have some unfortunate news for anyone that thinks the war is really costing that much more than maintaining a military complex of the magnitude that the USA does: they are nearly identical. You can call bullshit on me for this one, but I actually researched it for a paper(300 level American History) and a military complex's overhead is what led to the crash of the USSR, despite what some retards might think."

Wow, a 300 level course? What an amazing bit of credibility! Wait, I was taking 400 level classes while still in high school, nevermind.

Despite my sarcasm, I'm totally with you here. America has a larger military budget than the next twenty countries combined, it's pretty shocking when you look at just how much of our tax dollars goes to training people to kill. What if we just had double Russia and China's budgets combined, wouldn't that be enough? Wouldn't that be double enough? I really hope we stop trying to police the world sometime soon, and that definately includes Iraq. Eisenhower said there was a certain level of safety we could never reach, and to keep on policing the world out of fear would eventually bankrupt a nation. Well, now we're becoming bankrupt.

So no, it doesn't eliminate money from pulling our troops out. In fact, your argument supports withdrawel more than anything else, the amount of money we're spending policing other countries is insane. Let's stop, shall we? Good.
Back to top
coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalebD wrote:
"John McCain stood up to mainstream republicans when he was a CONGRESSMAN, before even becoming a senator. In the senate he worked with democrats almost as much as republicans in his first term, and yet he managed to become the republican nominee. If Obama is willing to sacrifice what he believes in to advance in his party, do we really want him as president? Also, every senator has 1 vote, being new doesn't mean he has less power."

The thing is, Obama never sacrificed what he believed in. McCain did, on multiple topics (see torture.)




If Obama never sacrificed what he believes in, then that means he actually is a radical leftie. That is even worse. Also, when did McCain flip on torture?
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how people claim Obama has done radical left actions, yet fail to ever list one.
Back to top
YTheAlien



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Obama was a radical leftist I would be more supportive of him. Radical liberalism rules.
Back to top
Laplie



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 561

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalebD wrote:

The thing is, Obama never sacrificed what he believed in. McCain did, on multiple topics (see torture.)


FISA. Obama said on many occasions he wouldn't sign the bill if it included retroactive immunity for telecoms. Yet he, and many other dems, flip-flopped when the bill actually came down.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Other - Non-Magic All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 4 of 7

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All content on this page may not be reproduced without consent of Magic-League Directors.
Magic the Gathering is TM and copyright Wizards of the Coast, Inc, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved.


About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy