Magic Workstation: Magic-League's 1st choice

by Laplie on 2006-12-17 14:21 MDT

This is great, MWS is so much better than Apprentice.

FINALLY!!!

by Neo on 2006-12-17 14:25 MDT

:)

Sealed MWS FTW.

by PV on 2006-12-17 14:25 MDT

"The reasons for this are probably well known and I think everybody can see Magic Workstation is more advanced, has less bugs, provides more safety and just looks better."

I disagree with every single one of those besides the safety, so I don't think they are that apparent.

Congratulations on becoming just yet another online league that uses MWS only, just like all the others, though :/

by Pollo on 2006-12-17 14:25 MDT

lol

by Wiley on 2006-12-17 14:25 MDT

ugh oh well, suicide is an option still

by therooster on 2006-12-17 14:26 MDT

This is good news. Appr is so dated and will never get the update love it needs.

MWS is the right choice :)

by war18 on 2006-12-17 14:27 MDT

GJ Nico you just lost the support of the leagues most prolific and congradulated player.

by PV on 2006-12-17 14:29 MDT

by Lamex on 2006-12-17 14:30 MDT

Fixed the link guys, should be working

by ElvishGod on 2006-12-17 14:41 MDT

PV, you are so wrong. Apprentice errors far more than MWS. MWS is also obviously more advanced.

Also, you just gotta use the right server, and it wont crash. No, there is a server better than pavouk, however if I try to type its name it will have mostly just ****.

by Truth- on 2006-12-17 14:43 MDT

Wow yall are dumb... Yes MWS is more advanced and what not.. but many people cant dowload MWS due to its much large file. It takes up alot more space. I myself have always played on apprentice and will never be used to having to play on mws.This site is going to die. You must also take into consideration MWs will break 50% Because it is extended season. People want to play extended on mws due to the ability of using the wishes. This is a bad move on the staff. I mean I personaly dont care about the no trials on apprentice part , because there were already almost none. But what are you going to do about people who cant get mws? What is some of league's well known players cant play in the trials. <--- that might nto be the case but I am just saying.Whats up with the staff First the flips rule now this. This is BLASTPHEMY!<-- suck at spelling( dont know if its right)
Moving the room is dumb.There is absolutly no talking in #Workstation anyways. Many people just go on the servers if they want a game. Moving it would be dumb.
Thanks again for screwing up the league ! I really am glad ^-^

by Wiley on 2006-12-17 14:44 MDT

Funny because I host (don't use a server) and it crashes for me a lot.

I used appr at least 100 times more than I use mws, I know what I'm talking about, mws errors way more and the errors are far worse; they often END THE FUCKING GAME.

Another thing is that I wouldnt support this even if this were for appr; each program should be represented quasi equally and not so that players like me get fucked out of not being able to adequately play in trials because a) they hate the program and b) their computer can't handle it.

Again, thanks for fucking a lot of members over and being too stubborn to reverse this god-awful change.

by qwyrxian on 2006-12-17 14:46 MDT

How about this difference: technically, MWS isn't a free program, while Apprentice is. Why make it so that we all have to feel like we're breaking the law and some poor programmer's income by having to play on mws?

And don't lie about not forcing. By establishing somehing as a standard, that is forcing. Like no child left behind, for example.

by ringman on 2006-12-17 14:51 MDT

pv rulez so pv should count at least as 50%:P
mws rocks but if app could get as better as mws i think app would be the choice bcz it has the love mws never had it.
from now on should be pollo talking about this mexican soap:P:P:P

by qwyrxian on 2006-12-17 14:51 MDT

What happens when MWS becomes a non-free program for real, as opposed to just requesting registration?

Your reasons are at least partially, clearly wrong. I hate the way MWS looks, therefore, it can't obviously look better. It isn't obviously more advanced, because there is, as far as I know only one thing that MWS can do that apprentice can't--wishes. Maybe the better solution is to fix that part of apprentice...

And your methodology is terribly flawed. All you did was wait for a randomly chosen interval that had data that fit the conclusion you wanted--note that you already said that this was a decision M-L staff had made already, but didn't want to force on people.

In the end, don't lie. Adsmit the truth--the M-L staff prefers MWS, so you have taken steps to ensure that it becomes the default standard. Misrecognition is unbecoming of you.

by Stucco on 2006-12-17 14:53 MDT

Yeah... because Apprentice is never going to be played now forever and ever. Read the damn post people. If you want App to be the main program, then host the majority of the nontrial-master with it.

by Lamex on 2006-12-17 14:53 MDT

You guys should realize the only real change is that ALL the trials will be MWS, we keep supporting Apprentice still and people can still play mini's and and all in Apprentice.

So no we do not force you to play MWS unless you want to play in a Trial or Master, and masters have always been MWS.

by Erebus- on 2006-12-17 14:54 MDT

YES!!! Finally
And the poor programmer above is Detonator from mwsdata.com/forums. So if you want to register, its really worth it. I have fully customized my MWS and it rocks.

by PV on 2006-12-17 14:55 MDT

unfortunately

how about you just change masters back to appr, then? ;)

by Akatsuki on 2006-12-17 14:55 MDT

Lol, all this MWS hate, I for one don't care what the 'official' application is, I just wanna play ^^. I think there should just be more MWS trials than appr like 70-30 or 60-40

by Bushviper on 2006-12-17 15:00 MDT

I think it is funny people are always defending Appr. when the real and only argument between it and MWS is the fact that in MWS the people can always play, even if niether can host. In appr, you have to hope to god that your opponent can host or has hamachi (which I have found many who do not) or else your fate lies in a 50/50 chance when the whole point of joining the tourniment was to PLAY in the first place.

by Rotstejn on 2006-12-17 15:02 MDT

less bugs ?

are you crazy ? I have a bug in my mws every day ....

by Rotstejn on 2006-12-17 15:02 MDT

less bugs ?

are you crazy ? I have a bug in my mws every day ....

by Shooter on 2006-12-17 15:03 MDT

I guess that's the correct choice. MWS is more resilient to cheats. I prefer it to play in online tourneys.
But for casual play app is MUCH better.
Speed >>> Efficiency

by dv8r on 2006-12-17 15:09 MDT

at first I thought this was a joke, then I realised that it wasn't april fools day...

firstly, your logic is wrong, apprentice minis fill up a lot faster, and mws is more popular because it's basically extended season now

secondly, mws DOES crash, look at the trial today, adn you can't just reconnect

thirdly, apprentice is much easier for a newer play to use, and it doesn't keep requiring me to register every time I use it

fouthly, mws is less lifelike (don't tell me for one second decks are 100% random irl, even if that is official wizards policy)

by ending trials on apprentice, I believe you have made a serious mistake. don't get me wrong, I'm not leaving this league over it, but I am saddened and even a bit angry that you have decided to enforce a change like this ppl

by Akatsuki on 2006-12-17 15:13 MDT

Actually just as a side note I hate MWS SHUFFLER BURN IT BURN IT BURN IT.

Yea. I bet PV doesn't like it because he didn't download all the cool pix =p.

by thranarama on 2006-12-17 15:23 MDT

what the hell?! You say that MWS "looks better" when the only reason that it "looks better" is because you can put the pictures on the cards! Why would you care about the pictures when you are just trying to test on the program?! Also, it puts off a lot of us who are unable to download MWS, at least i could play in SOME trials when they were on apprentice, too. But now you are completely cutting apprentice players off from semi-competitive play on this site, which is a shame. You can't just appeal to half of your player-base. If you continue to take such actions, this site will surely die. (oh, btw, most of the judges here are terrible anyway, so it figures they just try to help themselves)

by ant900 on 2006-12-17 15:27 MDT

while I do hate the mws shuffler, I do play it more than appr if nothing but for the availability of players. Now all that we need is a reliable reconnection program for mws

by Laplie on 2006-12-17 15:34 MDT

how can you NOT download MWS????

MWS is 11mb. In 2006 (almost 2007), how can you not manage to download 11mb?

Even on 56k dialup, it only take 20min.

by Nantuko on 2006-12-17 15:37 MDT

This is fucking garbage.
Pavouk always kicks me off and I get random bullshit game-losses.

by iKe on 2006-12-17 16:00 MDT

This is so stupid there was a shit load of extended minis recently and I don't know this for sure but it seemed like there was a lot more MWS trials in recent weeks than apprentice and I am sure that the MWS trials were at better times. I really think this is one of the DUMBEST ideas this league ever had. And craze is probably gonna have a shit fit and people are gonna start spamming the forums all over the site of how dumb this is. I love this league and I supported everything it did whether I liked it or not. But this is so fucking stupid!!!

by Spyx on 2006-12-17 16:07 MDT

This is great news :)

by Spyx on 2006-12-17 16:07 MDT

This is great news :)

by Hadou99 on 2006-12-17 16:12 MDT

this is retarded. i have nothing else to say.

by dsad on 2006-12-17 16:14 MDT

MTGO > MWS

by Laplie on 2006-12-17 16:17 MDT

iKe, MWS was beating Appr in T2 also. The only format Appr beat MWS in was Limited.

by Bushviper on 2006-12-17 16:28 MDT

So, all of you who are complaining about the switch, were you hoping that whinning about it here would change the desicion? Im sure they would make this big anouncment and then say "Wow! Alot of people are crying baout this, lets just do what they want".

by Erebus- on 2006-12-17 16:31 MDT

by azuRE on 2006-12-17 15:14 PST

MTGO > MWS

MTGO costs money. MWS is free. Do the math.

by Erebus- on 2006-12-17 16:31 MDT

by azuRE on 2006-12-17 15:14 PST

MTGO > MWS

MTGO costs money. MWS is free. Do the math.

by Anubis_End on 2006-12-17 16:32 MDT

Why on Earth would you chance what you have been doing? It's obvious from how fast this site is growing that you did something right, so why try to fix something that isn't broken?

So your MWS trials are starting to have more people than Appr? So in response, you decide to play the card of "Do what everyone else is doing." (1R, remove your soul from the game, take 3 points of homosexual damage, and lose alot of people of over this idiotic move)

It is not fair to everyone for you to say "Hey, I know alot of you play here because we are one of the last sites to support apprentice, but oh well, now you have to play MWS."

And please, you fucking idiot, do not try to buy us off with "you'll still have minis." You and I both know that doesn't mean shit. A mini is like getting a handjob. Well bitch, I wanna pop me a cherry.

(Okay, that is the sweetest analogy ever)

by dv8r on 2006-12-17 16:44 MDT

apprentice > mtgo, have you actually played mtgo, do you know how long testing takes on it

by PolarBearGod on 2006-12-17 16:48 MDT

No doubt this was bound to make some happy and piss of others. MWS, IMHO is better than Apprentice. It's certainly safer.

by BigShow on 2006-12-17 16:58 MDT

I think the only hotness this can match is of that of a russian hooker, trust me its a decent thing, but it can never beat asian lesbians

by TugaChampion on 2006-12-17 17:09 MDT

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

OMG!!! WHY???!!!!

Why ruin magic-league? There were already very few apprentice trials and they were only block or T2. Some people can only use apprentice and the gives them no change to play trials. Even having MWS only masters was a bit unfair but now trials too?

And those reasons are way too stupid. There's no way in hell MWS has less bugs. More advanced isn't always good. Let's take a look at some video games: Worms games were amazing in 2D and when they moved to 3D it became a bad game. And looking better depends on taste. Yeah in terms of safety it's better but there's the anti-cheating program and most people don't cheat. Then there's the obvious: MWS shuffler=crap.

It was already something like 9 out of 10 trials in MWS. Why did you have to make this?

Worst thing ever done in this league. I bet many will quit becasue of this shit. And remember that some people were only here because you still allowed appr.

bdw: dv8r arguments pretty much cover everything.

by Streakz on 2006-12-17 17:13 MDT

Ugh, I hate MWS so much it errors so frequently its not even funny. Also, I've been on this league for around 3 years now and I can't readily remember a time when my Apprentice errored to the point that we had to restart the game or someone recieved a gameloss. I think this is a bad decision; however, it really doesn't effect me much because the main reason I come here anymore is to play Masters/Invitationals and the occasional trial.

by ShiK_ri on 2006-12-17 17:25 MDT

well i think is a good decision but personally mws is slower and i can run appr better but i think mws is better for example for wishes in ext and is more complete i think this change won't affect the number of players in the league and if it changes it will be for better

by kokusho6 on 2006-12-17 17:39 MDT

i love the mws shuffler. idk what all of u guys r talking about, it rocks. hahahahaha

by kokusho6 on 2006-12-17 17:39 MDT

mws rocks apprentice sucks its been like that forever

by Eclipse0 on 2006-12-17 17:42 MDT

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. MWS is extremely unreliable. It crashes on my computer very regularly, approximately a quarter of the games I try to play do not end because my MWS has crashed. Apprentice is much faster, better written, and more reliable. I am disappointed by this action.

by Weedmonkey on 2006-12-17 17:44 MDT

Unfortunately, for those of us still on dialup (and for those of you in rural Australia, you'll understand what I mean), MWS isn't an option, because MWS lags terribly at times :(

by Mke410 on 2006-12-17 17:46 MDT

Personally I dont care about this decision. But backing MWS, it allows me to play games. I cant host, nor can I install hamachi. So if it wasnt for MWS I couldnt play often. And having MWS for trials and masters makes sense. because though highly improbable, its still possible to have an entire trial decided by flips if it was on apprentice. And isnt the point of tournament play, to actually play the game?

Thats just my 2 cents.

by Visara on 2006-12-17 17:51 MDT

Congratulations - you've just officially ruined Magic-League.com

MWS is complete garbage and has MORE bugs than Apprentice. I don't know where you're getting your info, but you're dead wrong.

I seriously don't think I've ever used MWS without it freezing up and crashing at least once every couple hours.

You've screwed up by doing this and I can tell you I don't think I'll be the only one to never play here again. I refuse to use MWS.

Oh well, MODO is much better than this place anyway. Especially now.

by PV on 2006-12-17 18:17 MDT

come on, we don't need to act like the league is ruined so they listen to us... I'm sure they have already figured out we don't like the change... RIGHT??? :O

Koen is just doing what he thinks is better for the league. I think he is wrong, too, but you can't act like he is doing it on purpose to punish us or something.

It IS very bad, though :/

by Acid_Christ on 2006-12-17 18:17 MDT

MWS broke the mark
Only in recent weeks and months, we see MWS finally breaking the 50%-mark. Our statistics show that in the regionals season, MWS T2 Trials had bigger turnouts than Apprentice ones. And in recent weeks, we see that judges run more MWS than Apprentice tournaments (70% to 30%).

Thas because all the trials that mws got more on were for extended :( "finally breaking the 50% mark" lol. Finally, and only 50%?! wtf. gayness. APPR>MWS anyday. My MWS is for World of Warcraft tcg, not magic. Mws= mana screw, and a big long hard screw up the ass all the way around.

by Acid_Christ on 2006-12-17 18:17 MDT

by krowzy on 2006-12-17 18:28 MDT

Wow, people really need to stop crying. It isn't going to end the league; it could make it better, or it could make it worse.

IMO, MWS is better. If you have a crappy computer, it may lag more, but that's not just MWS's fault. It's harder to cheat on, and you don't need hamachi. Servers don't crash that often, and usually pavouk works fine.

This is not the end of the league. Even if it is, it's just m-l, not magic in general. But you guys have to realize that change is a part of life, and that the world doesn't revolve around PV's opinion XD

by Wiley on 2006-12-17 18:45 MDT

Even if you like MWS more, how can you agree that it's better to fuck over everyone who doesn't? I'm not saying Appr should dominate, I'm saying they should be equally represented so what the league is doing is ludicrous and obviously isn't being well received.

by yavin1 on 2006-12-17 18:48 MDT

i think the old system of 50% each trail is fair. I think T2/limited trials should go to apprentice, but Extended (for wishes) vintage, and legacy trails need to be in MWS b/c of the importance of wishes. Apprentice is by far the more reliable system, and it can be solved by updating it and trying to make it more like MWS with pavouk and that stuff

by nasa on 2006-12-17 18:54 MDT

congrats,
you just lost more than half of magic league.

by blackcat77 on 2006-12-17 18:56 MDT

Well I switched to MWS and basically had to move away from tourney play. MWS has more exception errors than a whore has diseases.

Appr Is a very dated application and needs somewhat of a update. Perhaps if you quit crying and did something useful like make a better appr then this would not even be an issue. As is who really cares? PV your real playing is RL on the PT. Why would you be so mad?

I agree with dv8r that this isn't the best move but hey its Koens site.

by blackcat77 on 2006-12-17 18:56 MDT

oops*

by Alpha_n1 on 2006-12-17 18:57 MDT

CONGRATS to all of US!
MWS is just so much more fun, it's advanced, this is like the cars..., no1 likes to have an old car, but people make excuses saying it's simple it's blah blah blah. but life needs to go on, and we reach a point were app in so bad comparing with MWS, and if people can't see that we must force the development we should force people to go "into" the future, and leave the past behind.

bye bye app

by ElvishGod on 2006-12-17 19:00 MDT

MWS is faaar more lifelike than Appr... pure random is more realistic than automatically avoiding clumps.

by scurvy on 2006-12-17 19:03 MDT

I have always disliked the issues with MWS; I only ever came here for the Apprentice trials. I don't think I'll be coming back very often now.

by Revik on 2006-12-17 19:06 MDT

fwell...i cant use apprentice

i feel it sucks and the interface is awful, mws has a better deckbuilding system and it looks better. the lag and bugs suck on apprentice compared to mws, and overall mws is a cleaner interface. congrats on the change, koen.

by Revik on 2006-12-17 19:09 MDT

well...i cant use apprentice

i feel it sucks and the interface is awful, mws has a better deckbuilding system and it looks better. the lag and bugs suck on apprentice compared to mws, and overall mws is a cleaner interface. congrats on the change, koen.

by Craze on 2006-12-17 19:15 MDT

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

God you guys are determined to make this league worse and worse every day. Congrats you just took out the only reason O-gaming isn't kicking your asses.

by Craze on 2006-12-17 19:15 MDT

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

God you guys are determined to make this league worse and worse every day. Congrats you just took out the only reason O-gaming isn't kicking your asses.

by thedarkness on 2006-12-17 19:17 MDT

Four double posts...

Anyway, Y'ALL ARE RETARDED. Big difference between the ((two)) MWS bugs and the ((list)) of Apprentice bugs.........is that MWS is still in beta, and therefore still being improved. By 1.0, expect them to be gone.

So you know, you actually CAN reconnect on MWS, EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT CONNECTED VIA IP ADDRESS. You all need to get your facts straight before arguing them so vehemently.

Anyway, all that aside..quit being little whiny ass-spelunkers and do something about it instead of quitting, if you have a problem. And I second Laplie's motion:

How the fuck can you not be able to install an 18 megabyte (AFTER INSTALL) program that takes up less than 50 megs of RAM to run? o.o Are you running a Pentium II on Win98 or are you just arrogant and stupid?

My two cents.
-Dylan

Edit: AHAHAHAHAHAHA I'M SORRY I FORGOT! My friend has a computer, P2 Win98, AND IT DOES RUN MWS! :\

Another edit: By the time I finished typing that, there were two more double posts. Are you all so pissed off your hands are shaking? GO OUT AND GET A LIFE.

by Acid_Christ on 2006-12-17 19:19 MDT

"MWS - Magic Leagues First Choice" ...is it just me or does this seem like an enorsement/advertisement? I could see MWS paying to advertise/only use mws to keep people from using appr and further endorsing MWS. So, how much money is the league/koen/whoever getting off of this?

by Buffalo_Wing on 2006-12-17 19:37 MDT

After years of playing both and preferring mws, I've finally come to a conclusion. MWS is pretty than app, has less hosting issues than app, can have wishes but every 20th game it kicks someone off.

I will not support this decision UNTIL MWS develops a functional reconnection device.

by ST4KZ on 2006-12-17 19:46 MDT

by sonicqaz on 2006-12-17 19:46 MDT

MWS hasn't worked for me at all in the past. Actually that's an exageration. It works for me 50% of the time, and other than that it crashes and someone gets a game loss.

To the people that keep saying, "Isn't the reason you come to play games," I agree that is why I come. But I also come to FINISH games. A lot of people have trouble with connecting to MWS servers. I have a 700k broadband connection and I get booted by MWS more than a football by the Detroit Lions.

With apprentice I cannot host. In the last two months I had only one game go to flips, and that was against the TC of that tournament (Pollo if I remember correctly). Meanwhile, I have only been able to finish one mini ever while playing on MWS.

The errors with apprentice aren't game enders. The most common error just misrepresents the opponents hand size, and when you know that's a problem you can keep track of that yourself.

Personally, I will give MWS one more go, but if it doesn't work I guess I'll pony up the money for mtgo. I'm good at drafting anyways so it may not cost me much, and I may even win some money....

by SkaTista on 2006-12-17 20:18 MDT

MWS >>> All !

by SkaTista on 2006-12-17 20:23 MDT

MWS >>> appr

by NahHolmes on 2006-12-17 20:24 MDT

This was the only logical conclusion, you realize that right?
1: MWS Shuffler this and that... Bottom line is only scrubs complain about this, the Apprentice shuffler literally cheats for you making it unusable for any tournament. The way you build your deck and the order and number you put the cards in can be used to manipulate how Apprentice shuffles your deck, this was a serious issue when Apprentice was the only program on the block even though it is hardly even known anymore (it was more of an issue with T1 and putting in singletons of Power, something to do with how Apprentice shuffler unclumps cards). MWS shuffler is legal, it works, and people who use it regularly find it fair. For every game it screws you there are 15 other games it doesn't, otherwise maybe your deck just sucks. If you never get land screwed/flooded or draw 3 of the same card in an opening hand in real life you probably don't shuffle enough. Take that deck to REL 4 tounement and have someone else riffle shuffle it a couple times and maybe you will see the difference.
2: MWS supports the SIDEBOARD during games. Automatically wins over Apprentice for Vintage, Extended, and Legacy for wishes. Imagine if Research/Development had gone in a top tier deck... Then there would be no reason to ever play Apprentice.
3: Oh my computer can't run MWS, *cry cry*. Hello MWS is a program from like 5 years ago are you running Windows 98 or something? I had a computer from 97 and used to run MWS on it before it caught a virus through Internet Explorer. Apprentice is to Internet Explorer as MWS is to Foxfire.
4: I've had Apprentice errors many times in the past, the difference is MWS errors are 99% of the time either at the beginning of the game and you can just close and reconnect or in the middle of the game and avoidable and caused by a user. Now that MWS is official there need to be rules as to what causes an error and who is at fault when one is caused as there is on other leagues that use MWS. These rules, if enforced, should cut down on MWS errors by about 90% (using my experiences on other leagues as an example).

by NahHolmes on 2006-12-17 20:29 MDT

Oh also undraw, if someone accidently draws a card MWS can undraw which makes it not a big issue. In Apprentice half the time it says card #x and half the time it just says the name of the card making it look like your cheating and causing a difficult ruling for judges.
LOL @ ACIDCHRIST - maybe they aren't getting paid maybe they just wanted you to go away so they switched to MWS.

by SL|RedDemon on 2006-12-17 20:43 MDT

alot of people already said why mws is the better choice but ill repeat some of them again.

first off - mws isnt 70 to 30% atm because of 1.x .. i see _ALOT_ of t2 and even SEALED (WTF?) mws minis nowadays.

i guess some tcs got pissed off when i flipped their minis in half.

BIG POINT - COIN FLIPS SUCK D*CK

2nd off .... apprentice as an outdated prog with far less options, known cheatable ways to build your deck and other known, 100% undetectable, you know what ways of screwing over other people.

apprentice is abondonded by its programmers, whereas mws will be further improved.

alot of the errors in mws are due to player mistakes .. like squarreling over a card via take control ... or making arrows to cards being put in graveyard. somethin that is and will probably be easily fixed.

on the other hand some seem to have the need to run 1 bazillion other programs while playing mws.

seriously .. my comp is like 4-5 years old and theres no problem whatsoever. how can you not be able to run mws?

it is more secure, has way more USEFUL options, is being further developed, i repeat , is CHEAT PROOF , and allows for walled people to play( which seems to be everyone and their brothers mother on m-l)

hamachi only works on windows xp and higher.

blabliblu

face it, half the people whining here are simply too lazy to learn how to use mws.

and anyway
you can still play ur beloved appr, no?

just not in trials/masters.

by tg on 2006-12-17 21:03 MDT

:o AWESOME!!!!!!!!

by JXClaytor on 2006-12-17 21:15 MDT

Why does there even need to be an "offical" free application? I have all three (no OCTGN) and use them often.

I fail to see the reason to singlehandedly support one system.

by Wiley on 2006-12-17 21:26 MDT

precisely. I prefer appr but there is no reason to make either system the 'preferred' system and this isn't going to go down well with anyone :\

do you think MORE people are gonna go to ML now that it lends less support to one program, when before it lent quasi-equal support to each one?

by snoopster on 2006-12-17 21:51 MDT

doodie :)

by snoopster on 2006-12-17 21:51 MDT

doodie :)

by ChuckNorris on 2006-12-17 21:55 MDT

If ya'll don't like MWS, then ya'll can just GIIIIIIIIT OUT :D

by sc4rs on 2006-12-17 21:55 MDT

For all the crap everyone talks about all of magic-league's decisions (concerning changes in policy with flips, MWS, etc.) none of you are actually leaving.

They're not losing their players because of this. People bitch, moan, get used to it, and continue to play on the site.

And why should they lose players? They are literally changing one thing. Masters were always MWS. Now trials will always be MWS, though all formats where Wish was legal (aka everything besides Standard) had to be MWS. Hell, even Standard has Research//Development, which nobody uses, but Research CAN'T be used in Apprentice. Apprentice has GAMEPLAY liabilities. If MWS crashes once in a while, so be it. But I guarantee you less players will be screwed out of trials via MWS errors than those who got screwed out of trials because they couldn't connect on Apprentice b/c of someone who refused to DL hamachi.

The ONLY relevant thing this changes is Standard Trials to MWS. Why quit the site over something little like that? Honestly, the community here has so much more to in than the other sites, and despite our stupid little quibbles and everyone-but-me-hating-Craze, most of the players who are on here regularly are proud of it, and wouldn't think of changing loyalties to some other site.

So while I know dedicated M-lers don't want to see their beloved site go to waste, relax. It won't. This is honestly more of a cosmetic change than anything else. And nobody complained about changing the banner...:P

by TylerTMK on 2006-12-17 22:03 MDT

Although I do prefer MWS, this was a bad move IMO

by sonicqaz on 2006-12-17 22:06 MDT

Cosmetic change....

I tried playing on MWS again tonight. Played 7 games and had 2 crashes. As opposed to like 20 games and 1 crash in apprentice.

Limited + Standard should be Apprentice

Wish legal formats should be MWS.

by WasD on 2006-12-17 22:16 MDT

MWS > APPR

<3 m-l for this decision!

by WasD on 2006-12-17 22:17 MDT

mws ftw!

by Wiley on 2006-12-17 22:28 MDT

you fucking retards

even if mws is better than appr, why make EVERY SINGLE TRIAL mws and fuck me over, and displease so many others? This isnt a debate of which program is better for fuck's sake

by Anubis_End on 2006-12-17 23:21 MDT

If you people really wanted to use wishes and such in appr, it wouldn't be that hard.
1.) You build your deck complete with the sideboard cards in deck.
2.) Before flips or anything like that, you take the side board cards and place them face down on the right side of the play area

So there ya go, a little extra work.

But seriously, alot of people are saying that this is not fair, and I am wondering if the staff is listening to us. Yes this is Koen's site, but right now, it's no different than any of the other sites on the net and I honestly think this is a grave error.

Say what you want about apprentice, say what you want about MWS. They both have their downfalls and merits, and this site should support them both or it will surely become one sided.

What is next, forcing everyone to use the Java chatroom for fear of scripts?

by pZ-m1l on 2006-12-17 23:26 MDT

really right choise
MWS is nice plathform for mtg play

by RedWolf on 2006-12-18 00:39 MDT

I, for one, CONGRATULATE you on this choice.

Look, I played Apprentice, I know what it is like, not tapping the card, but instead writing "TAPPED" over it, or deckbuilding without any logic SYSTEM.I do not want to use insults, but Apprentice should definitely deserve some for NOT resembling Magic in the ugliest way possible.

Way to go Magic-League, way to go.

by Counterlife on 2006-12-18 00:53 MDT

...Dont like MWS...Appr is faster for standard...where is a new program alternative?...MODO...(Dont bitch about costs. Play limited, get good, get tix, be the next Terry Soh. If you didnt get the reference, look up how Terry got good. Wasnt cardshops.)

by Counterlife on 2006-12-18 00:53 MDT

...Dont like MWS...Appr is faster for standard...where is a new program alternative?...MODO...Dont bitch about costs. Play limited, get good, get tix, be the next Terry Soh. If you didnt get the reference, look up how Terry got good. Wasnt cardshops.

by Malhavoc on 2006-12-18 00:53 MDT

That's great news! That was something which should have happened years ago. Long live MWS!

by Counterlife on 2006-12-18 00:53 MDT

Dont like MWS.Appr is faster for standard.where is a new program alternative?.MODO.Dont bitch about costs. Play limited, get good, get tix, be the next Terry Soh. If you didnt get the reference, look up how Terry got good. Wasnt cardshops.

by NahHolmes on 2006-12-18 01:23 MDT

The best part of this is that except for PV it pissed off every player I don't like. Please honor your threats and go away to this imaginary other league that uses Apprentice. If it does exist everyone cheats.

by Bejeezus on 2006-12-18 01:34 MDT

I don't like this decision. I'll leave it at that.

by Pete278 on 2006-12-18 02:12 MDT

I have two things to say:

First, w00t! I've been arguing for this decision (not that anyone listens to me, obv.) for ages.

Next, can someone get me unbanned from solidirc? I leave for a few days and come back to find me banned, wtf?

by Pete278 on 2006-12-18 02:13 MDT

Whoops, double post.

by gluedman on 2006-12-18 02:43 MDT

Both programs have their uses. I find it to be difficult to build decks cleanly and quickly with MWS so I like Appr for new Block and T2. MWS is clearly superior for extended, legacy and vintage.
At the same time I travel alot and Appr. can be loaded from a zipdrive and run on the machine at any random hostel which I really enjoy. Part of the reason that Appr is popular is that it is so simple.
I see no reason not to fully support both. Maybe the solution is to run two trials a day, one in each format.
I would also like to note that this really should have been put out to debate and discussion by the league members before making such a sweeping change. I truelly appricate the hard work that Koen and others do to run this great site. But this change is too big to happen without some public discussion first.
(sorry for typos on foreigñ keyboard)
thank you,
Gluedman

by Black_Elf on 2006-12-18 03:09 MDT

I see many people saying m-l is ruined. Why would you say that? You can still play with appr in minis. And seriously you can bitch all you want Koen has all the right to ruin this league, but for the past what? 4-5 years? since this league was made Koen always did what's better for the league, someone always was against it and complained but the league didn't die did it? And even in the event of magic-league being ruined why is that so much of a problem are you that much addicted to mtg and this league? Honestly i apreciate all the time i spent here, all the good players i had to go against, all the cool people i met, and i'm sure even if the league were to die slowly i'd still keep in touch with some of those people. Thie league has reached it's goal a long time ago, i highly doubt it's going to be ruined because of changing to mws.

Also people complaining about the shuffler, you've never had bad draws IRL? Hell people know i'm the guy that is most pissed at the draws and i bitch left and right but i always go back and play with mws, bad draws are a part of magic. When the shuffler works in your favour you don't complain do you?

by calcano on 2006-12-18 03:26 MDT

i dont play appr at all and am a bit happy about this change but i think its completly unfair to those who only use appr. I dont see how any 1 benefits from this change. Its a lose lose situation.

by TugaChampion on 2006-12-18 03:41 MDT

It's still stupid to make it trials only on MWS while masters (even T2 masters!!!) were already only MWS but now trials too?

And the reasons make it even more stupid. Those reasons are manipulated.

First, MWS will always have way more bugs than appr. The only bug I have gotten with appr is not showing my opp's number of cards in hand correctly and I haven't got that for a long time (about 6/7 months). The only time I had to reconnect with appr it was because my internet was fucked up and I still managed to reconnect. MWS on the other hand when I don't get a bug in one hour of gameplay I throw a party at my house because it's rare. And reconnecting with MWS is more dificult than winning with BDW against MartyrTron with a first turn Martyr.

Second, for god's sake: it's extended season! No one makes appr extended minis. Of course there are more MWS minis now. And then when T2 season is back there will still be more mws minis than appr minis because now it's a MWS only league (where you can still make appr minis but why do them all damn trials are on mws?) and you'll say: "it's not extended season and there are still more mws than appr minis".

GG you just fucked up m-l.

by Meatwarz on 2006-12-18 04:12 MDT

Great!

Really happy with this, it was so obv for a long time - what for use old retarted program like Appr when you got a lot better one - MWS.

P.S.
All the idiots complaining suck hard +)

by Holzi on 2006-12-18 04:28 MDT

Yeah sounds great, MWS has more style :-)

by Black_Elf on 2006-12-18 04:36 MDT

Tuga how did they ruin magic-league? THEY DIDN'T PROHIBIT APPRENTICE! You can still play with it, just not the trials and the masters. And trust me i've been around when masters were played with Apprentice, there's a reason why they were changed to MWS. When they were played via appr a lot of peope had to flip do you know how frustrating it is to go 4-0 then lose 2-3 matches in a row by flips?

People it's not like the whole program was banned, you can still play with it stop acting like it's forbidden to play with it.

by Kaesh on 2006-12-18 04:43 MDT

This honestly has to be the most replied-to news item in m-l history.
Of course MWS has more bugs, anyone thinking otherwise is a complete ******* *****, but I still rather support the change.
As a related thing, I thereby request the m-l administration to set up a STABLE server for MWS.

by Ronnan on 2006-12-18 04:58 MDT

trials are to be hold on mws since
competitive tournaments should not be
determined by coinflips

@pete:
(11:12:31) • Pete278 has left IRC (User has been banned from SolidIRC Network (Infected with: BotNet26 (See http://secure.irc-chat.net/info.php?viri=BotNet26 for more info)))

by noxweb on 2006-12-18 05:10 MDT

well for one, MWS is better than apprentice in my opinion, and for some people that can't host, and don't know anything about computers, it will be hard for them to play apprentice against someone else who also can't host (it happened to me a lot), anyways I think you guys shouldn't just 'get rid' of APP trials, I think it would be good to have at least mws70-30app trials, and I also don't agree with other members that it will make m-l go down, cause mws can be run on a not too fast computer

by TugaChampion on 2006-12-18 06:03 MDT

Well they didn't ban appr but they banned it from trials which is pretty stupid because some peopel can only use appr and it's much more reliable.

by akdb8r on 2006-12-18 06:56 MDT

Originally written by qwyrxian:

> And your methodology is terribly flawed. All
> you did was wait for a randomly chosen
> interval that had data that fit the conclusion
> you wanted

Good call. Seeing their "quasi-statistics" made me want to cry. And I write this not as an Appr supporter, but as a grad student who is knee-deep in p-values right now.

by _SeBaS_ on 2006-12-18 07:08 MDT

NICE!!!!!!

by Genku_ on 2006-12-18 07:16 MDT

nice !! great decision, mws is much better

by PV on 2006-12-18 07:24 MDT

Them main point, IMO, is that people that like mws, like mws. People that like appr, ABSOLUTELY HATE MWS and usually do not play it at all.

I myself have let go many tournaments just because they were MWS. I suspect a lot of people will play less now - MWS is just that boring to play.

by _Koby_ on 2006-12-18 07:39 MDT

i think this is the right decision . if u want to playtest some decks ( playing quick games) appr is better but for playing trials and master ?? i dont want to play a torney that i can actually win some money agains ppl that can be cheating . i quit from playing appr a long time ago because i couldnt host it and was sick of turning off and on the hamichi ( those r not the best reasons i know) .

to make mtg lg into a mws league i think they need to improve some points :

-create more servers to play .
-create a faster version of mws :P ( PS: for me mws is fast enought)

by akdb8r on 2006-12-18 07:41 MDT

Originally posted by NahHolmes:

> Apprentice is to Internet Explorer as MWS
> is to Foxfire.

Yuck. What a terrible analogy. For one, you give no reason why this analogy even makes sense; you only assert that it is true. Indeed, there is very little in common between MWS/Appr and either of these web broswers.

But, more importantly, if we were forced to create an analogy from this, you'd find that Appr is actually closer to Firefox (not Foxfire, as you call it) for a couple reasons:

1. Like Appr, Firefox 2.0 is much smaller than IE 7.0. IE7 is about 15 megs, whereas Firefox is only about 6. It's smaller and more efficient (just like Appr),

2. The Mozilla Foundation (the group that puts out Firefox) is a not-for-profit business. The Microsoft Corporation (responsible for IE) is a profiteering enterprise. Compare to Appr/MWS, where Appr is completely free, but MWS will only offer limited functionality until you fork over some cash.

The analogy you gave makes very little sense, and--in reality--supports the opposite conclusion.

by Custode on 2006-12-18 07:41 MDT

The ones who aren't satisfied with MWS can still just play Apprentice, I can't see a problem at all. I don't think a lot will change here; I prefer MWS but running a few Apprentice Trials would be better for the benefit of the league though I suppose.

What about Draft Minis btw? Still Apprentice I suppose (due to sec-code issues).

Additionally, I think there'll be a lot more trouble with MWS Sealed Trials because some Sec-Codes don't match (if you have split, Dandan or Aether cards).

by KeySam on 2006-12-18 07:54 MDT

ok now lets see some facts:

1. MWS shuffler is bader than appr one? I wouldnt agree 100% but ok lets stay like this.

2. MWS can use wishes.

3. Everyone!! can play MWS (THERES NO REASON WHY NOT, thats just stuff that appr lover say) appr. cant be played by all(i cant use hamachi and cant host, i am not dumb i am connected through my university and they block all tunnels and dont open ports for me)

4. MWS is slower then appr(wouldnt agree 100% but lets stay it again)

5. MWS has pictures appr dont.

6. MWS has mor bugs than appr(thats 100$ right, but you can prefend from bugging by
1. using mwsgames.net(you can recconect there also)
2. dont manipulate cards that other player control

7. MWS has arrows and other nice features(thats why i can play mws as fast as appr)

thats all i guess

even if i count all the things pro appr as full. we have here 4/3 no one can desagree.
The only real reason i see is the shuffler, but its random(not perfect cause it cant be done perfect) but its random, so you can draw bad starthands(just like in rl if you realy shuffle). Even if it is faster i not an good argument like the picture thing isnt.

To conclude, everyone can play mws+you can use all cards in mws+ nice features like arrows makes appr just bader as mws. If i forgott something tell me.

by facelessman on 2006-12-18 07:59 MDT

I cant believe some ppl still prefer Apprentice. he only reasons i can figure are:

1. Too lasy to discover MWS, wich are not that diferent from apprencite.

2. Do cheating on Appr.

All other reasons are not 100% correct such as shuffle or bugs.

MWS is so much better. Nice one Koen

by Illydan on 2006-12-18 08:52 MDT

What about MWS? It simply SUX!!!! Why i must loose games because of that fucking shuffler? It's impossible to draw 4 Llanowar elves in a row in real...Apprentice is better and more playable by everyone! FREEEEEEDOOOOOM!!!!

by IAmWoe on 2006-12-18 08:52 MDT

woo! go MWS! i've been waiting for this one.

by Mandos on 2006-12-18 08:53 MDT

Well about computers not supporting mws...I've a computer that is like 7 yrs old and it totaly sucks. Windows XP hardly work and i use it for mws, irc and messenger. I mean mws is rly not a very demanding program. Also it has pictures. U need to download thme but its quite simple. I hate app just because of pictures.and some other thing:D

by Mandos on 2006-12-18 08:55 MDT

sry posting twice

by dizzy on 2006-12-18 09:06 MDT

Just because something is flashier doesnt make it better. I hear more complaints in day,every day, about mws. i.e. the shuffler,connection problems,crashes, that lead to game losses in trials and on and on and on. The only problem ive ever had out of apprentice is it showing more cards in your hand than what is actually there. The only thing that mws has that is a good is its deckbuilder charts and thats it. Everything else about is is worse. Who cares if u have pics or can target the card u want to target prior to casting a spell if u have all the bugs that come along with it. I think Koen went off of some of his close judges opinions and didnt get the facts of the two programs. As far as wishes go they CAN be used in apprentice too. All u have to do is create a card and at end of game the player loads the card out of his sb and shows his opponent that it was in there or takes a gameloss. How difficult is that. Not near as difficult as anything dealing with mws and thats a fact. I apologize to everyone who comes to this site and wont be able to participate becuase of mws because i know that no one else cares about those people, obviously. If its not broke why fix it. I really dont know why i even wasted my time with this or why any of us did for that matter becuase it obviously isnt majority rules. I dont know how u can figure stats on a one sided configuration. 90% of the trials in the last few months have been on mws so that would make the attendance in those trials be more than the apprentice ones. I bet if u run X amount of trial on appr and X amount on mws in a two month period, X being the same number, i bet that apprentice turn outs will out number mws greatly. I hope u take all these peoples thougts and opinions into consideration in keeping things the way they are. THank you, Dizzy

by dizzy on 2006-12-18 09:09 MDT

by roocker on 2006-12-18 09:21 MDT

Wow.... this was the moment I expected the league would never come to.... I don't see the reasons as aparent as you do except for safety... and that one is so relative... there is no point to cheat if tournaments with prize are played on MWS and those people are easily caught...
MWS is horrible... the shuffler does not work well and you won't convince me thats wrong... I never ever test in MWS you always shuffle look at the deck and see stuff like 9 lands together.. once in a while somebody who knew about how the shuffler was programmed and I trust him...

by Manipulation on 2006-12-18 09:39 MDT

This gayity is unparralelled.

by PV on 2006-12-18 09:45 MDT

OK, let's go through each of your points:

1. MWS shuffler is bader than appr one? -> that's not an argument for me. Both look random. It's worse, not bader, too :P

2. MWS can use wishes. -> Good, even though there are no wishes in t2.

3. Everyone!! can play MWS -> you will find out that more people can't play MWS than those that can't play appr. Besides, your problem only occurs when you get paired against someone WITH THE SAME PROBLEM, whereas people that can't play mws can't play mws period.

4. MWS is slower then appr- > it deffinitely is.

5. MWS has pictures appr dont. -> appr has a chocolate theme. Your point? I'm playing magic, I don't need pictures. Nice plus for those who do like them, but not a deciding factor by any means.

6. MWS has mor bugs than appr ->
correct.

2. dont manipulate cards that other player control -> not as common as you think.

7. MWS has arrows and other nice features(thats why i can play mws as fast as appr) -> I DON'T LIKE the arrows. I don't like not being able to put my cards over my opponent's. Do not count that as a plus when it's YOUR opinion. I HATE THE ARROWS. DIE ARROWS.

Besides, appr is a lot more user friendly. The appr chat is absurdly better, the editor is absurdly better, etc, etc...
Not to mention that many judges (like me) know how to act in APPR situations, because we've always used it, but have no clue on how to act regarding MWS. Just yesterday we had a situation in which I couldn't define whether it was cheating or one of many MWS bugs.

But whatever.

by DvK on 2006-12-18 09:51 MDT

http://www.mwsgames.com/index.php/MWS_Shuffler

by dv8r on 2006-12-18 10:05 MDT

Although I disagree with this decision (primarily with the bugs and stable servers issue) it's not really going to affect me, I'm still going to do all my testing on apprentice, if you guys wanna make changes to your site it's not my issue, I will still play in the mws trials and I'm not leaving the league. I am not willing to argue about mws vs apprentice, as it's clear that people are entrenched in their positions and are just rehashing the same arguments.

However, I am quite upset that Koen:

a) didn't consult the community the community over such a big decision, or give any warning to get people acclimatised to it before just implementing it. Did you honestly not expect a response like this?

b) didn't take the time to explain his reasoning properly (and in fact actually uses what to me appears to be biased statistics and flawed logic). MaRo would never have let something like this happen and be justified by just 3 lines of text (to give a not completely unrelated example).

c) is using a policy that ACTIVELY EXCLUDES or DIMINISHES the playing experience of certain people. For all the arguments in MWS's favour (which I again disagree with as an apprentice preferer), this is not an issue about which program is better, it's an issue about the accessibility of the league. It's not going to ruin the league, and for all your empty threats, most of you won't leave. BUT this was in my opinion a very poorly implemented (and as far as I can see) thought out decision, that has changed the league for the worse. The fact that a significant proportion (even if it IS a minority, which I doubt) prefers apprentice, should have made the decision to promote mws in this way impossible to justify.

d) is forcing apprentice users to use #apprentice to find opponents and play games. The channel has no history, even #workstation was absorbed from another league as per my understanding. We are all members of magic-league, why should we be forced to sit in another channel to look out for minis like we're somehow outcasts. I'm not saying for one second the old way was better, but why do we even NEED this channel.

If this is a sponsership issue or something pls say so now and I will back your decision 100%, but I really can't agree with it now.

EDIT: (as well as for grammar)
Koen's statement yesterday on #apprentice that if "#apprentice suddenly becomes more popular than #magic-league, we will reverse the policy and I will look stupid" highlight some of what I think is wrong with this decision making process. Clearly this will never happen, as apprentice users will go to #apprentice, but both will go to #magic-league. Secondly, even if did happen, it would be dismissed as being a fluke. Thirdly, this doesn't solve anything. "Oh we'll just go back to the way it was before that we are clearly unhappy about, if something that will never happens somehow does and we can't explain it away"

by _Koby_ on 2006-12-18 10:07 MDT

ppl are overreacting !!

1º- there will be as many appr minis as normal.
2º- ppl thing that , that can kill appr , but appr is already dead (dont want to offend any1) the programmers of the application r not working anymore , if something new that requires a litle chance (as wishes in the past) appr will not be updated . ppl r saying that appr2 will be released since 2001 ! it will never be released ..

i dont play appr trials , but i thing that should be like 30% appr trial and 70% of mws trial . all masters in mws ( i mentioned before)

my english is very bad sorry .

by sgtpepper87 on 2006-12-18 10:24 MDT

i simply don't get why people complain about the mws shuffler and say that it wouldn't be like the shuffling in real life. it's true that you sometimes get mana screwed and flooded and that you lose because of that, but think about it, do you never get that when you play in real life? for example, yesterday, i played a sealed ptq and in round 2 i had 2 lands in my opening hand (a mulliganed 6 card hand) and kept. then i drew no lands for 6 turns and just lost because of that. game 2 of the same match, i kept an opener with 3 lands and drew 9 lands compared to 3 spells over the course of the game (and i played 1 careful consideration).
saying the mws shuffler is not like in real life and doesn't randomize your deck is bullshit because thats what happens in real life too.

by TugaChampion on 2006-12-18 10:41 MDT

I agree with PV and dv8r. There were already very few appr trials and only for sealed/t2/block which don't use wishes. Many people can only use appr (or they HATE mws and only want to use appr) so we should keep appr trials. MWS already dominates the trials so MWS fans can almost always play.

And about MWS being safer in terms of cheating a friend of mine (who doesn't play in the league) told me there were cheats for MWS too and that he had seen a friend of him using them once (who also doesn't play in the league). He told me this when I was telling him there were no cheats for MWS. So it's very likely that someone has already cheated in MWS trials and/or even masters.

by Anubis_End on 2006-12-18 10:57 MDT

"dont want to play a torney that i can actually win some money agains ppl that can be cheating"

Then don't go to a tournament irl, because people cheat. People will always cheat. Right now someone is cheating on MWS.

Something interesting I have known, both sides have the same arguements. App players complain because MWS bugs out on us every hour, on the hour. MWS players can't connect with App because they are walled. Don't you see how M-L came together? Man, this whole thing makes sense now.

M-L is what it is. It is a collection of magic players from all across the globe that get together and talk, flame, harass, sometimes molest, and play games which other people. Some of those people use MWS. Some of those people use App. Some of them choose the Web-based Java chat applet, some prefer IRC.

The truth is, alot of people can use App and alot of people can use MWS. Look at it this way.

I am a man. I can smoke cock and be gay, or romance me a fine young babe and do her rotten like Ayame in a porn shop.

I can go eat at McDonald's or Burgerking.

You peeps see it yet? App players will always be app players. MWS players will always be MWS players. Some people do them both. So now you have you straights, your gays, and your bis. :D I know someone overly enjoying that.

Anyway, Koen, don't you think the people's voice is clear now? App players want equal representation in trials.

Koen is a cool guy, and he is probably just waiting for everything to calm down, but it is obvious half this site uses appr, and the other half uses MWS. There is no clear majority of which is the most preferred program.

I'm sure when Koen make's his next announcement, it is going to be that he listened to the people and he will be going back to doing trials of both types.

Thanks to all the die-hard app players who stuck around during this!

by kebe on 2006-12-18 11:35 MDT

this makes me never want to consideringplaying on this site again
in the past ive had more errors and problems with workstation than apprentice and to make it look reasonable u have to spend DI to dl pics and sht plus gameplay in workstation is so much slower

by blacksabbath on 2006-12-18 11:57 MDT

never forget this day, because this is the day ill agree with PV for the first time ever.

MWS SUCKS!

this is a slow ass program, APPR is clearly better, doesnt metter if MWS has cute figures or if PG cant use cheating prograns on it. the problem with safety is letting cheaters go unpunished, not the software.

im pretty sure this league will go down in numbers, and ill laught my ass out if you lose PV, wich is like, this place's flag.

its an absurdo lie that mws minis fill faster them appr minis.

i just think whoever does mws started paying Koen some more bucks.

LETS GO BACK TO APPRENTICE!

by Anubis_End on 2006-12-18 12:39 MDT

Please note that a judges actions should not reflect the wishes of the entire league.

DS_McWerp runs both MWS and Appr minis, sometimes at the same time. Tato-, well, that cat is mad or something. He is constantly running T2 appr minis. Ayame-chan can be talking into making a mini with a little slap and tickle. ShadowS usually runs nothing but other formats anyway. Wow....it looks like I am running out of active judges...

by blacksabbath on 2006-12-18 12:54 MDT

O-Gaming there we go!

or maybe PV could found a league!

lol

by blacksabbath on 2006-12-18 12:54 MDT

O-Gaming there we go!

or maybe PV could found a league!

lol

by pG on 2006-12-18 13:51 MDT

well...i rarely play anymore because of MWS... its just altogether more annoying...i agree with paulo...and as everyone KNOWS i cant cheat anymore :(
ya well just because the admin likes MWS more, doesn't mean its better....
gg magic-league...

by SarcasticRat on 2006-12-18 13:55 MDT

This is a great decision by m-l. Not only does this make most of the big tournaments happen on the best program, it also weeds out the fucking moron whiners who can't handle change and refuse to play on a far superior program. Bravo Koen! Bravo.

EDIT: on second thought, I honestly don't give a shit. Furthermore, anyone who does give a shit about this is lame, and should die, preferably in a fire or some other painful way.

by TheDarkMan on 2006-12-18 14:43 MDT

The only bugs I've ever had with MWS was when my computer was not equipped well enough to handle it. Now (at least 4-5 years later), most MODERN computers should be able to handle it.

I've also noticed that I've lost more games on MWS than in Appr. Maybe this is because the better players play MWS...?

What I'm really disappointed in, however, was the failure of Apprentice 2.0, especially since I still have the beta version, and the tap/untap animation is so awesome...

by theTJtrooper on 2006-12-18 15:14 MDT

Nail in the coffin

by WoodSage on 2006-12-18 15:39 MDT

Look, I acknowledge that MWS is the superior program, it has a nicer interface, is still in development/supported, has Wishes and all that...

I just hope it's made clear that Apprentice will still be supported, and that there will still be minis for it (especially draft minis which I haven't seen run on MWS). I don't think not supporting it for Trials will drive that many people away, but I really hope it remains supported (I can understand trials and minis not being run in Appr anymore).

I've had some issues with MWS which I posted on the forums. I have used both for a long time (Apprentice for years, and MWS since I upgraded my computer last year), and Apprentice still has some features I like better (especially the deckbuilder).

And as I mentioned, I've had some crippling bugs and crashes in MWS (especially when connected to pavouk or such), including particularly demoralizing ones in trials, while I never had a single crash in Apprentice.

by Shiva on 2006-12-18 15:47 MDT

[20:38:50] <05&Neo> Just so everyone understands, T2, Ext. and Eternal are mostly played by MWS users, so those trials will be MWS only. However, Since Sealed is predominately an APPRENTICE favorite, we will keep all sealed trials in Apprentice due to popular demand. We dont want anyone to feel that we no longer support apprentice.

Decision
After years of struggles, internal and public forum discussions, the Magic-League staff finally decided to make Magic Workstation the preferred, primary method of Magic-League play.

What does this mean?

Trials. All Trials will be played with MWS.

Magic Workstation play will now be in our main channel: #magic-league and Apprentice play will move to #apprentice.

Magic Workstation will be mentioned in our Guides as the primary option of free online Magic: the Gathering play.

Apprentice play will continue to be supported and we don't expect it to die out anytime soon.

Neo simply told that MWS players - W/ NO REASONS - WILL never play a sealed trial.

Congratulations!

by Anubis_End on 2006-12-18 16:23 MDT

Oh no, the MWS players must be bitching about not being able to use MWS in a trial.

FUCK ALL OF YOU.

Jeez, you pretend like the app players are just crying and don't want to move on...

by SkaP on 2006-12-18 17:46 MDT

First of all Im only playing MWS, so Im not able to compare the two programs.
Cause of that reason i appreciate this decision, even for selfish reasons, cause i hate it not to be able to play a trial on weekends, cause it is at apprentice.
Now someone can say, just learn to play with apprentice, but the same argument counts for appr.only-players and MWS. Nevertheless there should be also support for apprentice, if there is demand for it. And if you read the posts here, it seems so.
There are also some people who argue, that they cant play with MWS and at the same time are whining that there are no trials on appr. anymore. ???? Im asking why spending several hours for a tourney, where i can win byes or an invitation for another tourney that will be runned with MWS. Where is the sense in this argument, i cant see it.
Some people who a pissed off cause of this decision also threaten to go to o-gaming. I played at o-gaming before i started here and
it is a MWS-only league, and by the way a dead league. You can wait for hours for a mini just to get a bye in first round, play the semi and win the tourney without finals, cause the opponent also dropped, that sucks. If you dare to ask for a mini, or just if there will be a mini in the next couple of minutes, you get a warning, that you will get kicked if you dont stop to beg for a mini.
At ML you can ask and very often there will be a response to your wish in a second. M-L is a real cool league and will stay so.
And i cant understand, why some say this league will die if it loses PV. Ok big names support always Internetsides and so, but i cant believe that a league as huge as this one will die, only because the most prominent player will leave.
I would also appreciate, if there will be MWS-Drafts here, it works at o-gaming, so it should be also possible here, correct me if if it isnt so, cause im no expert according computers.
At last Im fine with this decision, as mentioned before, but apprentice players still shoud have there trials if they want them.

by Esibnitsud on 2006-12-18 21:57 MDT

This is stupid. Ask any long time player.. apprentice gameflow is simply better. Tempo and flow are important factors to the game, both in fun and skill. Appr is still the better app, even with its bugs and problems (which BTW in my 4+ years of using the program i have ran into about 3 times)

by Neo on 2006-12-18 22:08 MDT

MWS Players wont never play sealed?

okay.... won't never? ....

by Acid_Christ on 2006-12-18 22:24 MDT

QUOTE
//MWS broke the mark
Only in recent weeks and months, we see MWS finally breaking the 50%-mark. Our statistics show that in the regionals season, MWS T2 Trials had bigger turnouts than Apprentice ones. And in recent weeks, we see that judges run more MWS than Apprentice tournaments (70% to 30%). //

Quote from Neo
//You see for the last 6 months, we have been gradually increasing the number of MWS Trials. Because of that, more users began downloading and playing with MWS. Now, more than half the league is using MWS over Apprentice in trials (And this is in NON-Planned Trials). T1x By itself showed a 99% majority. The only thing that did not get the majority was Sealed and Draft. Well, we cant draft in MWS so thats obvious, so that leaves limited as being favored by apprentice users. //

It "finally" hit the 50% mark because you forced people to either play with it or dont play at all.

by Lord_tiamat on 2006-12-18 22:41 MDT

This is Jank, MWS sucks ass, every time i use the program it crashes. Appr yeah has its bugs but they can be fixed where as in Mws its a game loss.
The rise in MWS minis/trials, Ext. season.

And you know that by having MWS as your main prog there will be a fast and steady decline of Appr mini's until finally there are none and at which point i'd rather play on MTGO because mws sucks ass.

Also you have been forcing mws trials for almost 4 months it seems like. and what is this about Oh look Mws is at 50% lets hurry and make it officially the prog of use before it drops again. you should have let the league vote on it or something dont just have the staff which is what like 15-20 people make that decision we make up over 500 people who play on M-L.

by Anubis_End on 2006-12-19 00:20 MDT

Seriously, and since you banished all the app fans to #apprentice, atleast give us a fucking timer....because gee whiz, ours seems to not function for shit.

by Alucart on 2006-12-19 01:30 MDT

as a form of passive resistance i recommend any judges that feel this decision was wrong make only appr minis

this would create less of a dramatic problem and less verbal confrontation in the rooms

by s7 on 2006-12-19 02:25 MDT

Magic the Gathering Online Leagues: SERIOUS BUSINESS

by krowzy on 2006-12-19 04:43 MDT

s7 is my candidate for the winner of the thread.

This is not irl guys. Don't throw a hissy fit over it. Move on; you'll still be able to play on apprentice. They're not deleting from your computers.

by unlying on 2006-12-19 07:00 MDT

it's cool. MWS rulz!

by Neko1976 on 2006-12-19 07:05 MDT

I have Gprs inet(its sucks) at home. Earlier i play MWS, in spite of her higher
traffic, since it has distributive
file for Update(download it at work and bring at home). Now i can't autoupdate it
AND play trials. Bad for me and ml. GL.

by SteveOB on 2006-12-19 07:21 MDT

...as far as the change I don't care either way I dislike appr but still doesn't both me to play on there. whomever was saying that they play 100x more on appr then mws and know that mws has more bugs is obviously retarded to have an actauly grasp you would have to play evenly or to you mws would just have like 75% more bugs or something in that region. and you are able to reconnect on mws. Also does this mean that site will not be running appr 8 mans I didn't really think thats what they were saying. Just that this is the new format for trials.

by affinity104 on 2006-12-19 07:31 MDT

MWS FTW!!!!!!

by arthurmauk on 2006-12-19 09:17 MDT

Hallelujah.

by Anubis_End on 2006-12-19 11:04 MDT

They will still run app minis, but no more app trials. Plus the rooms getting moved. They fucked up the feel of the site but whatever....

Oh, and if this isn't a big deal, why did you take the time to read all this, post here, and tell us it is no big deal?

by blacksabbath on 2006-12-19 12:49 MDT

mws is clearly for noobs!

anyone with a brain notices that appr works better, in a less frustrating way, and is much more friendly.

speed is also very important for people testing, unlike people who play for fun (noobs).

by Black_Elf on 2006-12-19 13:55 MDT

People if you want to argue about this, please make sense and make it in a civilized matter. Posts like ozzy's are plain stupid and makes me want to join the opposite side.

Stop overreacting, it's an ONLINE league for gods sake, it's a GAME, it's not the end of the world, go outside and meet a girl take her out, have some fun.

by blacksabbath on 2006-12-19 14:13 MDT

ah fuck off nigger!

by SarcasticRat on 2006-12-19 14:31 MDT

"by s7 on 2006-12-19 03:25 CST

Magic the Gathering Online Leagues: SERIOUS BUSINESS"

Exactly. The fact that people even give a shit about such a minor change is just hilarious in many different ways. Almost all the trials were already being run on MWS anyways, and the minis are going to stay about the same. I honestly don't see the big deal here, and think everyone needs to stop the bitching and drama and just move on with their lives, as sad and pathetic as they may be.

by Black_Elf on 2006-12-19 14:49 MDT

Ozzy you're not very smart are you? How dare we play Magic for fun! Only noobs play a game that was designed to have fun with (debatable it might have been designed to get a lot of money :D ). And no MWS is not for noobs, a couple of years ago some guy called AceofSpades was top of the rating for 1 year he played mws only, i'm pretty sure he plays 10000 better than you. Stupid generalisations like yours can be used against you. For example i can say that all Appr players are idiots because of your comment however i'm not gonna do it because i know a lot of Appr players that are hell even smarter than me.

by arch_wooohh on 2006-12-19 15:36 MDT

How about you just ELIMINATE the other completely?

That way, there would be ONE place for everyone, ONE place to hold all your little drafts and minis and whatnot, and ONE program so that nobody can bitch about this.

That's the only solution.

by Manipulation on 2006-12-19 16:15 MDT

I heard that if we get to 1,000 comments, the site will crash and they'll have to give in to our demands...

TO VICTORY!!!1!!!1!

by Anubis_End on 2006-12-19 17:44 MDT

T0 Vict0ry!!!!!!11!!!!!one!!!eleventyone!

by _Koby_ on 2006-12-19 18:07 MDT

T0 Vict0ry!!!!!!11!!!!!one!!!eleventyone!

by yavin1 on 2006-12-19 18:38 MDT

TO VICTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!i don't know this number

by yavin1 on 2006-12-19 18:39 MDT

victory for apprentice. Even though MWS has a higher percentage, what good is that if still 50% of all games result in a Game Loss for a player due to a stupid error that MWS has a bountiful amount of. I bet apprentice has more games that are actually played than MWS, even if MWS does have more people playing

by KeySam on 2006-12-19 19:47 MDT

@ pv i just saw what you wrote(sry 4 my bad english)

You sad i shouldnt count points that are only my opinion, but then you say you and other judges dont know how special situations are, thats also personal knowledge(whatever).

I still dont see any reason why someone cant play mws? i mean this is not a programm wich needs high perfomance. (and belive me i often have to play MWS or flip in appr matches, cause i cant use the hamachi thing, so it doesnt matter if my opponent can, he must be able to host or we have to do other things).

The deck editor doesnt count! you can build your decks still in appr and import them to mws. You still can playtest 90% of the time(in t2) on appr, only the trials are affected.

You can play(beside the arrows vs card draw things) more or less the same like you did in appr(you dont have attack tapped either but ok). I played about 1 year appr but i didnt liked to search enemy for everygame i play thats why i changed to mws. And after a short time i liked it more.

You said that the appr chat is better(uhm why? i dont see there a big difference, so we are on the personal feeling again)

The wishes thing(theres also a card in t2 which uses sideboard (research/development) i dont see it played often but on mws (of course) i see it sometimes(not often but there can be cards in the future using this which are better). Some1 else posted how it could work with wishes, but that wont work, cause you dont know if the card he loaded was in his side or not (maybe it was in his main deck) and research/development wont work at all(again it isnt played mutch, but stopping people from playing it isnt that nice.

And you can prevent mws from bugging. if you dont do the things it normally doesnt crash, and you can reconnect if it happens.

Someone else said the game flow ... in apr is better. Personal feeling again. And again if you want to play realy fast on mws you can.

I have to say that i am happy with this, cause i dont like appr that mutch. But it wouldnt be that hard if it stayed like it was.

Thx for good arguing without flaming.

KeySam

by Bejeezus on 2006-12-20 14:48 MDT

T0 Vict0ry!!!!!!11!!!!!one!!!eleventyone!

by R3wind on 2006-12-21 10:12 MDT

I just did the install... That was a lot of fun now... I think I would rather fill out job app... or maybe I will go stand in line at the DMV....

by Ro||o on 2006-12-22 13:59 MDT

Apprentice is so much better. It's really a shame how many people are blinded by MWS's "extras".

by Ro||o on 2006-12-22 13:59 MDT

Apprentice is so much better. It's really a shame how many people are blinded by MWS's "extras".

by poopascoopa on 2006-12-22 19:55 MDT

Great. I despise MWS and will never play here again because of this bullshit.

I knew M-L was starting to go downhill back when you dorks made pG a channel OP and made Zenth a judge. But this is the final straw...I'm outta here.

by kimzter on 2006-12-22 20:42 MDT

i hadn't played magic in a couple years. then one day a few weeks back i decided to download appr again and look for a place to play. Here I am, It's Great easy to get games even found a draft option Even Better :) Now I come into the site and get pushed into a different channel, I Shrug say oh well and just connect to the apprentice channel. It's still good not as good but still good. Then today I come to the forums while I wait for a draft to form and see that there will be no more trials in Apprentice, So I think "WTF mate" I'm not going to be allowed to play in trials just because suddenly Apprentice is not good enough. PLEASE GUYS FIX THIS run trials in both, I was just getting back in the groove and thinking about joining some but see No reason to fill my already cramped drive with redundant programming
Kimzter

by akdb8r on 2006-12-22 22:32 MDT

> Magic Workstation play will now be in our main
> channel: #magic-league and Apprentice play
> will move to #apprentice.

I don't fully understand the rationale behind this rule. Even when #workstation existed, I (among others) ran MWS tournaments in #magic-league and nobody ever blinked an eye. Now, however, when I attempt to run Appr tournaments in #magic-league, everybody acts as though I've committed a grave sin.

I implore: why can't both Appr and MWS peacefully coexist in #magic-league, just like they did in the past?

by [Wergoheb] on 2006-12-22 23:52 MDT

There is only one way to resolve this...

ALL OUT RACE WAR!

by Manipulation on 2006-12-23 22:57 MDT

I declare unsexiness and demand satisfaction...er...

TO VICTORY!!!!1!!!1!

by RThomas on 2006-12-23 23:12 MDT

Congratulations to the Magic-League.com officials for making this change. It has been a long time in coming, and I'm proud that it finally occured.

by warwizard87 on 2006-12-26 14:04 MDT

I know i don't play here and play in "that other league" But i have to hand it to koen this IS a change that was a long time in coming. MWS is a more stable program overall, it really is not THAT large to DL, Has the ability to let 2 firewalled players still play, lack of cheat programs (to those of you that say there are no cheat programs or that no one would use them, you are nieve and uninformed)

Congrats to magic-leagues staff for taking a huge step towards. seriously how can nay one argue apprentice>MWS. Please look at the actual systems they both employ. I used apprentice along time ago and hated it. But it was the only thing at the time. Come on people use our head and the tech available.
To be honest the guys that want apprentice only have no were else to go, pretty much at this point evolve or quit.

(this is not a official o-gaming address just my personal feelings ;) )

by Ro||o on 2006-12-22 15:59 EST

Apprentice is so much better. It's really a shame how many people are blinded by MWS's "extras".

How is it better? Lack of wishes? lack of card art? the morph bug? backwash? cna't play if both peeps are firewalled? Is it just me or is this not just "extras" but legetimte reasons why apprentice sucks. The apprentice camp NEEDS a real reason why appentice is better, the whole "its to large to dl" thing is bunk and easly dismissed. come on provide program spacifics lets compare

apprentice: wishes don't work
MWS: sideboard is serchable

apprentice: has the cool chaos magic setting
MWS: none

apprentice: plays only magic
MWS: player made patches for 5-6 other games with others in the works

apprentice:forced flips due to firewalls
MWS: server play for firewalled people

apprentice: generic image
MWS: card arts avalable

apprentice: Known cheat program that is notirosly hard to prove is in use
MWS: no known cheats

apprentice: no longer has updates
MWS:ubdated on occasion, however, not nearly as often as i would like

Apprentice:smaller download
MWS:large download

totals:
apprentice:2
MWS:6
mabey you can think of others but thats off the top of my head ;)

EDIT
oh another thing i just remberd

Apprentice: no hot buttons for chat
MWS: programable hot buttons for that chat, to me being able to hit a button and have it say "in response" "damagae on stack" WAIT!" or "EOT" is pretty huge and solves the "he moved faster then i could type arguments to some degree.

so 7 for mws?
2 for apprentice.

by warwizard87 on 2006-12-26 14:04 MDT

double post deleted

by Farseer on 2006-12-26 15:05 MDT

I started playing Magic on MWS and find that the program is acceptably playable.

As I am not a computer programmer, I can't comment on any technical aspects. If you find that your program is crashing a lot then why not:
(i) Create your own application like DragonStar Studios and Detonator did, or
(ii) Talk to the MWS people and get the problem sorted.

I really like the MWS visuals. App to me always looks so boring.

The biggest reason seems to be that 'Old' players started on App and want to keep that. An understandable human emotion.

by ZeMuppet on 2006-12-27 14:33 MDT

So this is the Mac and Windows discussion? "Oh, my Mac can do anything your PC can!" "It's can't right-click"

I personally do not like Magic Workstation. I am an apprentice fan because of the fact that it is not flashy, fast, and comfortable.

To talk for a moment on the not flash subject, everyone praises MWS for it's look, use of flavor text, and the ability to show card illustrations. You guys do know if you use the card pictures, then you are violating Wizard's personal property, and for that reason can be sued or fined. So the ability to steal other people's intellectual property should not be a determining factor in the MWS to Apprentice debate.

In all honesty, this should not be a debate at all. You can enjoy MWS for what it is, just like we can love Apprentice for what it is.

The thing is, Apprentice players do not want an all apprentice magic-league. We were comfortable with the way things use to be, which was trials for both programs and the masters in MWS.

The channel situation as well is somewhat disturbing. #Magic-League was never the apprentice channel, it will NEVER be the workstation channel. #Magic-League is the MAGIC-LEAGUE channel. What about players of both programs? Must they continue to float between two different channels to find a suitable mini?

Face it Koen, you know you screwed up and I hope you are man enough to admit that the old way was better.

Oh, and #beggars needs to return.

I remember when we could waltz in there, idle, beg for a mini, and it was a forum the judges could check to see what the people wanted. Those were the days.

Please note that after this decision was made, I have watched everyone engage in flame wars...this is sad people, this decision as seemingly torn us apart....I dunno/

Appr has more than enough supporters, so Koen, please give us back some trials other than limited, and please do the channels like they should be. #Magic-League for people of Magic-League, #Workstation and #apprentice should not exist except for discussion rooms about those progs.

by TugaChampion on 2006-12-30 04:09 MDT

lol warwizard87. Some of your points are pretty stupid.

apprentice: plays only magic
MWS: player made patches for 5-6 other games with others in the works

ok. MWS could even play every computer game that's not tha point. This is Magic-league we only need the program to let us play Magic.

apprentice: Known cheat program that is notirosly hard to prove is in use
MWS: no known cheats

It's not hard to prover. Yes you can't always prove but it's not hard to prove. But there are cheats for MWS for your information.

Now I have some more:

Appr is free
MWS you have to pay to get rid of the annoying ads.

Appr has way less bugs
MWS has way more bugs

Appr is easier to reconnect
MWS is harder to reconnect

Everyone can use Appr (although some can't host but they still can play)
People on older PCs can't play MWS

Appr's shuffler is way better
MWS' shuffler sucks!

by NahHolmes on 2006-12-30 08:31 MDT

Apprentice shuffler = not random = cheating
There is no known way not to cheat on Apprentice. Also there are no cheats for MWS. If there is one what's it called, where is it. Oh that's right the only place it exists is in the overactive imagination of apprentice users who cry where their deck is properly shuffled.

by warwizard87 on 2006-12-30 12:47 MDT

"lol warwizard87. Some of your points are pretty stupid.

apprentice: plays only magic
MWS: player made patches for 5-6 other games with others in the works

ok. MWS could even play every computer game that's not tha point. This is Magic-league we only need the program to let us play Magic. "

Actuly thats one of the biggest features for some players. talk to the large VS or netrunner followings.

"apprentice: Known cheat program that is notirosly hard to prove is in use
MWS: no known cheats

It's not hard to prover. Yes you can't always prove but it's not hard to prove. But there are cheats for MWS for your information. "

The fact that one exists and there is never gonna be a update to apprentice to stop it is enough for me. Okay link me to the MWS cheat....can you...becouse i know a few program designers who wnat to know.
"
Now I have some more:

Appr is free
MWS you have to pay to get rid of the annoying ads."

mws is free, the bells and whistles that every one keeps talking about is what costs money.

"Appr has way less bugs
MWS has way more bugs."

How so? compare the buggs side by side?
At lest in this case we are forever stuck with the same old apprentice bugs huh? good thing mws gets updates ;)

"Appr is easier to reconnect
MWS is harder to reconnect"

Ummm mabay i am not going to argue this one becuse frankly i am not sure my self

"Everyone can use Appr (although some can't host but they still can play)
People on older PCs can't play MWS"

False, shinnanaguns! I had a computer that would not even run Xp and mws ran perfectly fine. the system peramaters are not diffacult to reach.

MWS
Operating Systems: Windows 98/ME/2000/XP/2003

Minimum Hardware: Pentium 233MHz
64 MB RAM, 30 MB hard drive space

Apprentice requires Windows 95, 98, NT, or 2000, XP (can;t find the hard drive specs but it is of course tiny)

MWS is not requiring anything remotly diffacult. if your computer cna't run this??? how did you even manage to get online in the first place o_O "

"Appr's shuffler is way better
MWS' shuffler sucks!
"
Do you know the equations both programs use? i don't. find them and then we will talk.

by avataroflaw on 2006-12-30 16:32 MDT

personally, i dont understand mws's base cards or w/e. for some reason, the entire BOK set never appears for me. a lot of other random cards are always disappearing for me. i uninstalled, and all that, but dont understand it at all.

apprentice is a much simplier for game play. MWS is for those who care about statistics and what not. many people here are casual tournament players who do not care about statistics, or will ever go onto any ProTours. it should be 50/50 like it was...

by ST4KZ on 2006-12-30 21:53 MDT

lol. This kinda reminds me of the civil war.

by NahHolmes on 2006-12-31 10:29 MDT

There are no MWS cheats, if there were people who hate MWS would tell everyone and it would ruin MWS so we couldnt use it anyore.

by Alucard741 on 2007-01-02 00:33 MDT

"There are no MWS cheats, if there were people who hate MWS would tell everyone and it would ruin MWS so we couldnt use it anyore."
It wouldn't ruin mws because mws has active programmers who would create an update to solve whatever loophole the cheat uses. Also, the new mws version (0.95) is supposed to come out on January 8th.

by NahHolmes on 2007-01-02 05:38 MDT

Mindslaver, the way you said that almost made it sound like the cheat exists. I hope you were speaking hypotheticly because it doesn't.

by yho on 2007-01-02 08:40 MDT

why today's trial is played with appr?.. =/