Written by Revik on July 11, 2007
Constructed: Pushing the Limits
by Revik[Editor's note: the author adamantly demanded to be able to reuse some of his quotes from his previous article; thus, this article is somewhat of a re-write from a similar quote pool.]
Ah, Limited. The sweet smell of the pack being opened, flipping to the back to see that wonderful Vesuvan Shapeshifter. Nothing beats it. Everything about limited just screams fun, skill, and kick ass bombs. But it can be about so much more than that. It can improve your constructed game just as much as your limited game just by playing it. There are four basic aspects of improvement that limited gives to constructed: card evaluation, deck design, smart combat phases/open-mindedness, and keeping pace.
Card Evaluation
<Eliminator> Playing limited is important to build card evaluation skills. Playing a card because you know that it is good is much different than playing a card because Mike Flores says to.
Card evaluation is probably the most relevant, and thus the most important skill that can be picked up in limited formats. In draft, you have forty seconds to analyze and entire pack. You must then select the best card from it and pass on everything else, with little hope of seeing other great cards from the pack. Let's analyze a pack as an example:
Magus of the Scroll
Vampiric sliver
Skittering Monstrosity
Truth or Tale
Phyrexian Totem
Moorish Cavalry
Pit Keeper
Gaze of Justice
Aetherflame Wall
Flickering Spirit
Durkwood Baloth
Rift Bolt
Thallid Germinator
Ophidian Eye
Foriysan Interceptor
This pack is tough. I'll analyze it in a vacuum first. The first cards we can drop are:
Ophidian Eye
Foriysan Interceptor
Thallid Germinator
Flickering Spirit
Aetherflame Wall
Pit Keeper
Gaze of Justice
Moorish Cavalry
Truth or Tale
Skittering Monstrosity
Vampiric Sliver
These can all be eliminated as their overall power level is low. Now for the rest of the pack:
Rift Bolt
Durkwood Baloth
Phyrexian Totem
Magus of the Scroll
Since this is in a vacuum, We can assume a 5/5 with no evasion is inferior to reusable removal. We can also assume Reusable removal is better than one-time removal. Here we drop Baloth and Bolt. Between Totem and Scroll, I'd pick Magus because it is cheaper and is more relevant during the entire game, rather than Totem who just gets better in the later game.
So, in a vacuum: Magus of the Scroll
Now, in a regular draft:
We can go ahead and eliminate all the same cards as before, and once again be left with:
Rift Bolt
Durkwood Baloth
Magus of the Scroll
Phyrexian Totem
The first thing I notice is that we have two great cards in red, which basically eliminates it as a color. The player we are passing to will no doubt be in red no matter which of the two cards we pass, so we might as well ignore red, unless we sense some very strong signals or receive a bigger bomb later. Also, as is common knowledge in TPF draft, Black is incredibly underpowered, and is strictly a splash color, unless you draft some power removal. The right pick here, then?
Durkwood Baloth.
You see, evaluation comes down to much more than just "Is this a good card?" It also comes down to noticing signals, avoiding sending wrong signals, and not allow the guy you are passing to dominate the second pack of your draft. It even comes down to which colors are stronger in the draft format, and the pace at which the format is set at. How does this translate to constructed?
When evaluating a card, you need to recognize good cards that aren't hosed totally by a popularly used card in a popularly used deck. A good example of this is Soltari Priest. Before Planar Chaos hit, Soltari Priest was in every Boros deck, and Boros was one of the top decks in the format. Then Sulfur Elemental arrived, and it absolutely hosed Javilineers, Lions, and the ever-popular and hard-to-kill Priest. This takes more than card quality into mind, it takes into mind everything. Now people use Serra Avenger and Calciderm to make opposing Sulfur Elementals into good things rather than bad things. These seemingly "weaker" and "slower" cards have replaced one of the former staples in what was once the dominant deck in standard.
Deck Design
<Lunaddict> Limited forces you to go on the fundamentals of deck design, Like Hill Giant vs. Grizzly Bears. It's a very important aspect of any format you can play.
Another thing limited contributes to your constructed game is it aids in the deck design process. The easiest way to show this is to provide you with a draft pool, and then build a deck out of it. So here goes:
1 Aetherflame Wall
1 Battering Sliver
1 Benalish Cavalry
1 Emberwilde Augur
1 Flowstone Channeler
2 Ghost Tactician
1 Glass Asp
1 Grinning Ignus
1 Icatian Crier
2 Ivory Giant
1 Jhoira's Timebug
1 Magus of the Arena
2 Needlepeak Spider
1 Revered Dead
1 Rift Elemental
1 Shade of Trokair
2 Sidewinder Sliver
1 Sinew Sliver
1 Sliversmith
1 Subterranean Shambler
1 Vitaspore Thallid
2 Whitemane Lion
1 Chronomantic Escape
1 Dawn Charm
1 Dust Corona
1 Evangelize
2 Flowstone Embrace
1 Grapeshot
1 Imperial Mask
1 Marshaling Cry
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Patrician's Scorn
4 Riddle of Lightning
1 Shivan Meteor
1 Sulfurous Blast
1 Tolaria West
Appropriate # of basic lands.
The first thing I notice about this draft pool is its horrendous mana curve. We are going to have to run some sub-par creatures. It's also going to have to break the golden seventeen-land rule and hit eighteen because we want to hit five mana quickly. We're going to need to use all the creatures we can to support the good non creature burn we have: Grapeshot, Sulfurous Blast, and the four Riddles, which are amazing in the high-curve deck we're going to probably end up with. Evangelize is one of the bombier cards we have, so we're going to use it. That leaves us with:
18 lands
4 Riddle of lightning
1 Sulfurous Blast
1 Evangelize
1 Grapeshot
I think the Emberwilde Augur is a good choice for this, as it's burn on a stick. I also like the Giants and the Shade, as they're burnish creatures that have haste, and the Giant helps riddle if hit. Magus is a definite add because it's big, meaty, and has a good CC for riddle, plus is built-in removal. With the additions of these cards, we're up to thirty, which means we need ten more. We should use the Needlepeak Spiders, because they trade with 3/3 fliers and 4/4 ground forces, and they beat for four to inch your opponent lower and lower. Now I add the Benalish Cavalry and the two Whitemanes as tricks and beats. Flowstone Channeler allows us a smoother curve, being another three-drop. Next I'm adding Sinew Sliver and Battering Sliver. Battering acts as fat and helps out Riddle. Sinew has some synergy with Battering, is a bear, and helps smooth out the mana curve. For the final few cards, I add Grinning Ignus as sort-of acceleration, and as Grapeshot feed. To top it off, Subterranean Shambler Combos very well with Whitemanes, so we'll use it. This puts us at forty cards:
8x Plains
10x Mountain
2x Ivory Giant
1x Shade of Trokair
1x Emberwilde Augur
1x Sinew Sliver
1x Benalish Cavalry
1x Grapeshot
2x Whitemane Lion
1x Flowstone Channeler
1x Grinning Ignus
2x Needlepeak Spider
1x Subterranean Shambler
1x Sulfurous Blast
1x Evangelize
4x Riddle of Lightning
1x Magus of the Arena
1x Battering Sliver
The basic strategy of this deck, as you probably picked up before, is to beat your opponent as much as you can, and then save up to burn them out. This is made easy with four Riddle of Lightning, especially if you can hit things like Riddle off of a Riddle. It has neat synergy with Shambler and Whitemane, and they also save your dudes from Sulfurous Blast (which acts as another burn spell).So, how can this be applied to constructed? Well, aside from the manabase which is usually much more complicated in constructed, you can see you need to still focus your deck. If you can focus a pile of random cards into a deck with a purpose, you can focus every card legal in the format into a good deck. It's about finding and selecting the gems in the pool, and using them, which is MUCH easier in constructed than in limited. Heck, this draft deck can be compared to Boros Deck Wins (albeit on a slower curve, but this is limited), with the quick aggro beats and the burn to back it up. This deck hopes to win by turn seven, which, in constructed terms, is turn four-ish.
Smart Combat Phases/Open-mindedness
<Kiriel> Limited helps by allowing you to keep an open mind on the game (and the board) and help finding alternate ways to handle a situation.
<ShadowS> Well, limited forces you to make decisions a lot more than constructed does. There is a lot of variety in the cards, and you take a lot more into consideration. This keeps your mind more open for when you are playing constructed. It allows you to realize there is no set way to play Magic, and limited is very good for helping one realize this. It also helps you play on the fly because really, you have no choice.
One of the most difficult things for new limited players to realize is the fact that anything is an option. Cards that you'd NEVER expect to see getting played in Constructed formats run rampant, such as Ivory Giant or Needlepeak Spider. You need to be ready for anything, no matter what color your opponent is playing or how good you think you are. I've played against red/blue decks that played a forest on one turn, and then at my end of turn they made three tokens with sprout swarm. I was definitely not prepared for that, and it cost me a game I thought I had in my hands. Make sure you thoroughly go over your sideboard for something that can help against things you don't expect. This can be translated to constructed, but not exactly. Just make sure your sideboard is prepared and can handle just about anything, rather than just one deck that gives you issues.
This also connects to another point, which is to always make sure you have a smart combat phase. This is about as simple as making smart blocks, correctly using your removal, remembering to do things on declare attackers phase, and smart attacks. Why does it connect? You don't know if your opponent is holding a Venser's Diffusion, or an Ashcoat Bears. His morph can either be Fathom Seer, a Coral Trickster, or it can even be Vesuvan Shapeshifter while you have down a Spectral Force. You need to be prepared for any of these options. So this says that, in a nutshell, limited helps a constructed player stay sharp.
Keeping Pace
<Pollo> Playing limited is more than being a netdecking machine. There, you get to improve abilities that constructed doesn't offer. For example, mix synergy with other cards, mana curve, archetypes; all of that in less in less than 20 minutes in Sealed Deck, and less than 40 seconds in Booster Draft, which requires A LOT of skill to understand and perfect.
Speed is an aspect of the game that relates to card evaluation, but in a different way. You need to concentrate on making the fastest deck possible, as quickly as possible, and, in the case of draft, pay attention to signals and make the correct pick in less than 40 seconds. It exercises your mind so much, that if you do it enough you'll start to view cards in a different light, and start to recognize combos and synergies about them that you otherwise wouldn't. Here's an example pack, you have 30 seconds to pick.
The situation: You're in a TPF draft with forty second picks, on Future Sight. You're in RGu, and you need more removal and evasion creatures. You're almost positive the guy on you're passing to is in red, since you got cut off from it last pack. Here's the pack:
Magus of the Future
Narcoameoba
Sword of the Meek
Spellwild Ouphe
Gift of Granite
Kavu Primarch
Unblinking Bleb
Gathan Raiders
Sarcomite Myr
Edge of Autumn
Quiet Disrepair
Death Rattle
Ghostfire
Blade of the 6th Pride
Oblivion Crown
Looking at the pack, the first reaction is to take Magus. Unfortunately for us, though, it is somewhat color intensive and blue is only a splash for us (It's not exactly spectacular in Future Sight, either). There is little left in the pack if blue is gone, so we're onto our next colors. We need evasion and removal, but alas, there is no evasion. We see Ghostfire, Primarch, and the Always spectacular Gathan Raiders. This is a fairly easy decision, since we need removal; here we take Ghostfire.
Another situation:
The situation: We're in a TPF draft (with forty second picks), where it's pack one pick one. The guy next to us is loud, obnoxious, and he says he's going to try and force red/white. We need to decide whether or not to believe him, and still evaluate and make the correct choice. Here's the pack:
Serra Avenger
Evil Eye of Urborg
Tromp the Domains
Opaline Sliver
Auratog
Trespasser il-Vec
Rift Bolt
Viashino Bladescout
Pentarch Ward
Feebleness
Drudge Reavers
Search for Tomorrow
Clockspinning
Deathspore Thallid
Aetherflame Wall
What's the right pick here?
Looking at this pack, we have two bombs. Bombs almost always dictate your first picks. We now must think: are we going to get hosed of white? Serra is better than Tromp, but do we want to risk getting absolutely hosed of its color? We need to choose here. What do we take?
I take Serra. If this guy DOES end up in white, we still have time to recuperate. It's only the beginning of the draft, we still have time. Your first pick doesn't always dictate what you get, but it can help set a path. Arguments can be said in the other way, as ShadowS does. Here's what he had to say:
<ShadowS> If you *knew* he was gonna hose you of white, I'd take Tromp.
So, this one's controversial. We'll just have to hope an expert like Quenten Martin shows up at Magic-League one day and tells us what the answer is!
Is that it?
<dv8r> I feel that lots of things that can be applied to limited are relevant in constructed (or at least the smaller constructed formats like t2 and block); knowing a set in detail is very useful for limited. It can also help you to analyze how an opponent is playing, whether they play conservatively, or just have no more gas in hand for instance. It also helps you conclude when and if to bluff, which is definitely useful. Oh, one more thing--cards which are good in limited can often be very good in constructed, even if ruled out by most pundits (see Glare of Subdual). So in sum, limited makes you a better player and improves your deckbuilding ability.
The entire point of this article was to show something that not many people realize: you do not need to practice one format over and over to get better at it, but rather that you need to practice your skills over and over to get better. Sure, constructed requires some skills more than others, but so does limited. Limited stresses some very important skills, but can sometimes have a negative effect on your overall gameplay if you overload on it. Keep this in mind, and you should be fine.
Thanks for reading,
--Revik
*special thanks to Kiriel, Pollo, Lunaddict, Eliminator, ShadowS, and dv8r**
**Doubly special thanks to dv8r and ShadowS for their extra help
KeySam on 2007-07-11 11:45 MDT Nice Article i like it very mutch, i am not an very expirenced limited player, but shouldnt be the pick trump vs serra, always be trump on the first pick of course, cause you can splash trump into any deck, you cant splash serra... Maybe i am wrong. But great wrok.
KeySam
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gypsy on 2007-07-11 11:54 MDT yes tromp is the nuts and also thallid germinator isnt shit, ive even seen rich hoaen first pick it then defend it as a decent pick so its not an unplayable now is it
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EddieV on 2007-07-11 12:04 MDT I'd pick Tromp over Serra, KeySam was right, Tromp you can splash anywhere, and only gets more powerful as the game goes on, for Serra, you really don't want double colours... but it's only WW so...
I personally like multicolour in TPF
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ringman on 2007-07-11 12:49 MDT lmao!! wow shitty article obviously,dude sincerely serra over tromp?im a noob but even i can see that tromp is a bombzorz.I think you should first learn and then do the articles seriously dude.
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Sandro on 2007-07-11 13:40 MDT lol... I knew everyone would be on your nuts about the avenger over tromp bit. And I agree with pretty much everything said... other than that good article IMO...
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gypsy on 2007-07-11 13:53 MDT wtf tromp over serra i didnt even realise that
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Revik on 2007-07-11 14:06 MDT I would take Serra over tromp, because Serra is absolutely nuts. It's evasion, a wall, a hill giant, and only for two mana. Tromp does end games, but I value Serra over Tromp.
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Morvbis on 2007-07-11 14:46 MDT The article is very good and the concepts are valid. You guys should be focusing on the concepts the articles explains, rather than specific points/examples.
The right choice is definitely Tromp over Serra.
Yea Serra is good as a 3/3 flier with vigilance but it can be dealt with with the removal in this format. Tromp on the other hand will simply end games. And that is what a bomb is: a card that will end the game quickly if not taken care of soon or disrupted in someway. Serra is a very strong creature, but it's not the bomb that Tromp is. And on top of that, Tromp is splashable which is always a plus when talking about bombs.
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gypsy on 2007-07-11 15:19 MDT revik ur clearly not qualified to write a limited article
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Sandro on 2007-07-11 16:20 MDT lol stfu and give him some slack seriously... the article is good. And who cares if he likes avenger>tromp... just means when you draft with him you can get 2nd pick tromps. lol.
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Terminus-Est on 2007-07-11 16:39 MDT Thallid Germinator is probably one of the best thallids in the format (aside from rares, like thelon and sporesower, of course) and certainly not an auto-cut.
I was surprised at Serra > Tromp, which I disagree with, especially in that kind of situation (someone likely going white next to you), but each to their own.
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coolcreep on 2007-07-11 17:30 MDT You suck.
The first thing I notice is that we have two great cards in red, which basically eliminates it as a color. The player we are passing to will no doubt be in red no matter which of the two cards we pass, so we might as well ignore red, unless we sense some very strong signals or receive a bigger bomb later. Also, as is common knowledge in TPF draft, Black is incredibly underpowered, and is strictly a splash color, unless you draft some power removal. The right pick here, then?
Durkwood Baloth.
ATTENTION: DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GARBAGE!
first off: negater totem is not that good. it just isn't. It is nowhere in the same league as the other 3 cards he mentions.
Second off: the "eliminates red as a colour" speel is bullshit. Total bullshit. firstly, if the person on your left sees pick 2 rift bolt with a rare card missing and then no good red for the rest of the pack, he will realize that you took a great red card over a good red card and move into colours that flow throughout pack 1. Secondly, even if this guy does end up in red, he is only cutting you pack 2. You will still get some quality red, and good quality cards in whatever your other colour is. Then pack 3 nobody on your right will be in red and you will be able to get very nice red pack 3. The pick in this "sample booster" is, without any shadow of a doubt, magus of the scroll. Either your opponenet kills it, or you win. It is just that simple. 1/1s are very easy to kill in this format, true, but the fact that your opponent HAS to have an answer is very good, and even if it lives to activate ONE TIME before biting the dust, you have gained card advantage.
"Serra is better than tromp"
Die. Now.
Colour intensive evasive creatures are not better than game ending finishers which are easily splashed. Let's make a short list of common cards that deal with serra avenger:
Rift bolt
Strangling soot
ghostfire
ichor slick
erratic mutation
rathi trapper
riddle of lightning
fatal attraction
tendrils of corruption
lightning axe
Any flier with power 3 or more
Now lets make a list of common cards that deal with tromp the domains:
Dawn charm
Hmmmmmmm....interesting. Serra is a great card, but not a bomb. A bomb is something that completely swings the board in your favour as soon as you play and/or untap with it. Serra is a great beater, but she is no bomb. Tromp the domains, on the other hand, wins games. I feel for the inexperienced drafter who reads this and thinks it is more than utter bull.
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Morvbis on 2007-07-11 18:26 MDT The bit about the red cards and why Durkwood Baloth is actually correct. If you can't see why, coolcreep, then we shouldn't bother explaining it to you, because you lack vision (not in a literal term).
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coolcreep on 2007-07-11 18:29 MDT Ok w/e morvbis, you pass me the magus of the scroll, ill be happy to take it.
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Morvbis on 2007-07-11 19:18 MDT Okay and then the person you pass Rift Bolt to will fight you for red in pack 2, so have fun. I rather lessen the chances of fighting over a color with my neighbor then cutting the chances of getting enough good cards.
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krowzy on 2007-07-11 19:33 MDT Morvbis: It doesn't matter if you fight the guy on your left for red in pack 2. It's only one pack! Magus of the Scroll is incredible, and while the person on your left takes Rift Bolt, he still might not go red, or he may just splash it. Magus is the correct pick, hands down.
Tromp>>>>>>>Serra Avenger. I stopped reading at that point. Unfortunately, it was at the end of the article, and I had to read a whole bunch of garbage. You should have put that example first.
Basically, everything coolcreep said was right.
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Morvbis on 2007-07-11 20:09 MDT Only 1 pack? Are you crazy? You don't want to be cut off from your colors in any pack by your neighbors because there is really no guarantees in the third pack, so you don't want to be cut off in any pack. But, obviously, you're not interesting in sending signals, so go ahead with your picks. No skin off my back.
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Revik on 2007-07-11 20:19 MDT Fortunately, I could care less about other people's opinions of my opinions. If you accept them, great. If you don't, fine, and I invite you to make a jackass out of yourself by trying to look cool (although coolcreep and krowzy did that without the invitation...).
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Vlada on 2007-07-11 20:47 MDT by Revik on 2007-07-11 22:06 CET
I would take Serra over tromp, because Serra is absolutely nuts. It's evasion, a wall, a hill giant, and only for two mana. Tromp does end games, but I value Serra over Tromp
ROFLMAO
And when i remamber that i bashed Richard Hoaen for taking akroma over tromps...
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on 2007-07-11 21:27 MDT how can u take serra over tromp, i take rift bolt over serra if tromp isnt even in pack.
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SerialX on 2007-07-12 00:38 MDT Okay, seriously, how many more people are gonna say "ZOMG, DOOD, you are soo NOOBORZZ, like, SERRA OVER WTF MATE ^^"
The point here is that draft is more than just building a deck in a very limited situation. It's about the minor things a good player looks for. What got sent where, who might be taking what. It's a game of both acting, building, and out-screwing whoever is on either side of you.
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bleh on 2007-07-12 01:45 MDT SerialX, i understand the general purpose of the article, but that doesn't mean the picks aren't flawed. Although coolcreep always states his opinions a bit extreme, he is right.
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Revik on 2007-07-12 04:29 MDT I guess part of that reason is I don't consider tromp as big a bomb as serra in draft. It's amazing in sealed though :/
Edit: Morvbis, tell me:
who the fuck are you again?
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gypsy on 2007-07-12 14:22 MDT someone whos better than u
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coolcreep on 2007-07-12 14:24 MDT Only 1 pack? Are you crazy? You don't want to be cut off from your colors in any pack by your neighbors because there is really no guarantees in the third pack, so you don't want to be cut off in any pack. But, obviously, you're not interesting in sending signals, so go ahead with your picks. No skin off my back.
I am very interested in signalling. The thing is, a rift bolt in a pack with a rare missing is not that strong of a signal. If you think pick 2 rift bolt with a rare missing is a strong signal to go into red, you are not a very good drafter. Even if the person on your right opened a nice red card and picks the rift bolt, if he sees no good red packs 3-6 and he is intelligent, he will relegate red to splash status, as he does not want to get cut pack 3. Also, even if he goes red, unless you pair your red with black, you will get good things in your other colour pack 2. Getting cut off 1 of your colours in 1 pack is really not a draft ending dilemna. in your first pack, you should always take the strongest card. Baloth is nowhere near the same level as magus of the scroll. But again, if you want to pass me the bomb, by all means go ahead. I am more than willing to fight over red for a card like that.
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Metzel on 2007-07-12 14:36 MDT Now lets make a list of common cards that deal with tromp the domains:
Dawn charm
Hmmmmmmm....interesting. Serra is a great card, but not a bomb. A bomb is something that completely swings the board in your favour as soon as you play and/or untap with it. Serra is a great beater, but she is no bomb. Tromp the domains, on the other hand, wins games. I feel for the inexperienced drafter who reads this and thinks it is more than utter bull.
logic knot! that card is hot
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coolcreep on 2007-07-12 14:49 MDT XDXDXDXDXDXDXD
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Morvbis on 2007-07-12 15:55 MDT Magus can be a bomb in the mid-late game but unlike the other bombs, it's horribly vulnerable. It dies to just about every removal imaginable and you will probably play it rather early which makes it the first target for removal when the opponent starts drawing removal. Until you get to like mid-late game where it's effect starts to be a worry, it's just a 1/1. I wouldn't exactly piss my pants if I missed it.
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Revik on 2007-07-12 16:24 MDT Morvbis, please stop talking.
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dv8r on 2007-07-12 16:43 MDT ok, well done for concentrating only on one aspect of this article and missing the whole point of it. I thought the article was good, yes I disagreed with a few things, but it was generally well written and made a few valid points. However, as so many of you are idiotic enough to force the point....
I take serra avenger over tromp every time p1p1, and I honestly believe that you are thinking this over incorrectly. Yes, Serra Avenger does die to a lot, but AT WORST, it's a 2 mana 3/3 flyer (if you don't understand why this is good I'm going to assume you guys take sprout swarm over imperiosaur if you are green in pack 3, and are thus not worth speaking to).
Tromp costs 6, requires you to have 3 different types of mana in play to truly be a gamebreaker, not to mention several creatures. If your opponent removes avenger they have given up tempo, if your opponent counters tromp you've lost. Avenger is a fast clock, tromp is bad if you are facing a fast clock. Yes, tromp wins games, but so does drafting tempo decks.
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coolcreep on 2007-07-12 17:19 MDT I have said it before and I'll say it again dv8r: just because you are better than me doesnt mean you cant have shitty ass pick orders. And as for people not worth talking to, people who think fortify is better than ephemeron are near the top of the list.
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dv8r on 2007-07-12 18:15 MDT note how I've never said that I would take fortify over ephemeron, merely that it could be better in certain circumstances...
this is the same as the ephemeron vs fortify argument, but with serra avenger vs tromp, and yet you claim that one is so much better in one example, whilst the other is worse in the other? nice....
do you honestly take sprout swarm over imperiosaur? because I said that as a joke, the pick is so clearly in favour of imperiosaur, it's like comparing sulfurous blast to rift bolt :)
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gypsy on 2007-07-12 18:19 MDT wow dv8 u must be mentally retarded tromp is much much much better than avenger with all honesty and im pretty sure that u take swarm over imperiorsaur 100% of the time considering swarm is being referred to as a draft format warper and imperiosar can die to removal, so if u think this then u must be retarded
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Revik on 2007-07-12 18:26 MDT gee. I mean, sure. You say you are a good limited player with your 1608 rating or somth, while dv8r sits up there at #4 of the list.
and:
by Gypsy on 2007-07-12 20:19 EDT
wow dv8 u must be mentally retarded tromp is much much much better than avenger with all honesty and **WTF** im pretty sure that u take swarm over imperiorsaur 100% of the time considering swarm is being referred to as a draft format warper and imperiosar can die to removal **WTF**, so if u think this then u must be retarded
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coolcreep on 2007-07-12 18:46 MDT do you honestly take sprout swarm over imperiosaur? because I said that as a joke, the pick is so clearly in favour of imperiosaur, it's like comparing sulfurous blast to rift bolt :)
In the vast majority of green decks, i definatly take imperiosaur over sprout swarm. there are a few decks, however, that value SS over imperiousaur. As for ephemeron vs. fortify compared to avenger vs. tromp: fortify is a nice trick, but ephemeron is a total house, you could probably argue that it is a bomb even. Avenger has 3 toughness, which is the magic number in this format as far as removal is concerned. I have said this many times: things with 3 toughness are easy to deal with in this format. Tromp is very hard to deal with. With tromp, you are either a) in green, or b) splashing green. If it is the first scenario, it is very simple to have 1 or 2 off colour lands in your deck to fetch out to aid tromp (search for tomorrow/edge of autumn/evolution charm)If youre splashing green for it, and it is extremely good as a splash, chances are when you play it you have your 2 other colours out along with your forest. Serra is double coloured, and the fact that she costs 2 mana doesn't help you unless you have 2 other 2CC cards in hand (one played on turn 2, the other played on turn 4 along with serra) An effective 2WW for 3/3 flying vigilance is great, but it is no tromp. You say "if they kill it you gain tempo, if they counter tromp you lose", but how many people run maindeck countermagic? not too many. And if they do counter it, you simply don't alpha. As for dawn charm, sure it is a house vs. tromp, but putting your opponent on ONE SPECIFIC CARD or bust is a very good thing. As you said, Serra with a whole tempo deck built around it is probably stronger than tromp, but with tromp, all you need are creatures and lands and the game belongs to you.
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ShadowS on 2007-07-12 19:28 MDT I'd rather take Serra over tromp by a small margin. I love fast tempo decks. Honestly in the majority of the games of TPF draft I have played, very few of them could have been won off of tromp. If I have lots of creatures, I'm probably already winning, and most of the time I'm winning with just 2. Sure, tromp is 6 for 6 damage at that point, but how much damage does serra avenger do from turn 4 onwards? How much damage does she prevent from creatures that can't stand up to her? I'm sure the life total swing is higher from serra.
Also, being stuck in white is hardly terrible. WU is such a killer combination. WR, which is a tad lesser, is still a strong force.
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Ashmatan on 2007-07-12 20:08 MDT Tromp>>>>Serra IMO in limited
With one copy of Tromp, it's good enough. Being pack one, pick one, you may find two. Serra is nice, but a 3/3 flying, vigilance on turn four just isn't scary enough to make it a first pick. It dies to EVERY piece of common removal I can think of. Rift Bolt, Erratic Mutation, Ichor Slick, Utopia Vow, Temporal Isolation, Judge Unworthy....etc. That's at least one of each color that either makes Serra dead or worthless. You make the pick that trumps the best card in the pack, that's how you draft. It works. In the late game, I would much rather rip Tromp FTW off the top than Serra.
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Zsoltsy on 2007-07-12 20:09 MDT krowzy and coolcreep know whats going on.
Waste of 5 minutes reading this article.
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mikeg542 on 2007-07-12 20:47 MDT I agree that tromp is much better then serra avenger, but how can you say magus is a bomb when it is killed by more or less anything but a deck with no removal at all and isn't really effective until a time where 2 damage doesn't matter that much(unless, as probably hoped for, you are the agressor of the match). I'd say magus doesn't near on bomb territory until it uses its ability at least twice(Which I haven't seen happen before).
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kikimikejiki on 2007-07-12 21:21 MDT k dv8r is clearly wrong and his picks are flawed , clearly tromp is greater than avenger and the same goes for swarm over imperiosaur, spells that win game > efficient creatures
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MaitreFlavio on 2007-07-12 23:03 MDT I could eat alphabet soup and shit a better article than that.
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dv8r on 2007-07-12 23:26 MDT ok, it's a waste of time for me to even argue about imperiosaur vs sprout swarm. if you think that sprout swarm is the better pick (except, I will concede, in certain specific circumstances, where say you have 2+ thallid enablers such as mycoderms and germinators) I am just not discussing draft picks here with you any more. Sorry, you are just wrong. I'm more than happy to explain why to you in mirc, but I'm not wasting my time typing stuff like this up in comment which really have nothing to do with the article as a whole. My advice is to play and test with better players.
Revik: NEVER bring rating into an argument, especially ml rating (which is basically completely irrelevant). Gypsy and Kiki just come across as bad players who have provided no logic/facts for their arguments, ignoring ppl like that is the way to go.
Kiki: Aside from the fact that my "clearly wrong" picks are "flawed" (with no reasoning whatsoever), what you are saying shows a basic lack of comprehension of the tps format and how it works. I recommend that you revise up on it before nats starts as if you follow that philosophy in your drafts you will just take a beating. I also think you vastly overate sprout swarm, and should probably actually test the card against better players, in a less good play environment (I'm not necessarilly criticising your play group), bombs determine more matchs (tromp is undoubtably a bomb, serra avenger is "just" the most efficient creature except spectral force in time spiral), as your level of opposition goes up you will find that more and more games are decided on "tempoing out" your opponent. Sorry to be so condescending, but not only did you flame me directly and unprovoked(ly?), what you are saying in your flame is JUST WRONG.
Gypsy: (I'm going to put the same amount of thought and poise into this response as you graced us with yours). "You are an idiot, learn to draft you absolute f***ing n00b, you have no idea how to play magic, I will laugh as you scrub out of nats (although tbh, I doubt you are good enough to have qualified), learn what tempo means, learn how to rate cards, learn how to draft. GG."
Coolcreep: you don't have to cast avenger on turn 4, you can cast it on turn 5 with a 3 drop/morph. It is essentially a "free beat" that dominates the early game, is a great 3/3 flyer that you can play without exposing yourself to tricks, and which swings for 3 without losing you anything on defence. Dieing to removal is NOT a reason to rate a card lower, you wouldn't pick a vesuvian shapeshifter or spectral below tromp just because it died to removal. In tsp, being ahead on beats is very very important, as you can just blow out opponents in this format, especially in white, and especially on the play. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that tromp is bad because you lose to dawn charm, I'm saying that it's worst than one of the top 20 cards in the set, which is not at all bad. I'm not even saying it's a clear pick (like imperiosaur vs ss). I don't appreciate you taking my ephemeron vs fortify quote out of context either. That said, at least you seem to know what you are talking about... which is more than can be said for most of the posters here.
Maitre: please do, go on, I dare you
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Metzel on 2007-07-13 00:06 MDT Revik: NEVER bring rating into an argument, especially ml rating (which is basically completely irrelevant). Gypsy and Kiki just come across as bad players who have provided no logic/facts for their arguments, ignoring ppl like that is the way to go.
Kiki: Aside from the fact that my "clearly wrong" picks are "flawed" (with no reasoning whatsoever), what you are saying shows a basic lack of comprehension of the tps format and how it works. I recommend that you revise up on it before nats starts as if you follow that philosophy in your drafts you will just take a beating. I also think you vastly overate sprout swarm, and should probably actually test the card against better players, in a less good play environment (I'm not necessarilly criticising your play group), bombs determine more matchs (tromp is undoubtably a bomb, serra avenger is "just" the most efficient creature except spectral force in time spiral), as your level of opposition goes up you will find that more and more games are decided on "tempoing out" your opponent. Sorry to be so condescending, but not only did you flame me directly and unprovoked(ly?), what you are saying in your flame is JUST WRONG.
Gypsy: (I'm going to put the same amount of thought and poise into this response as you graced us with yours). "You are an idiot, learn to draft you absolute f***ing n00b, you have no idea how to play magic, I will laugh as you scrub out of nats (although tbh, I doubt you are good enough to have qualified), learn what tempo means, learn how to rate cards, learn how to draft. GG."
HAHA i thot ignoring them was the way to go?
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kikimikejiki on 2007-07-13 01:35 MDT Dv8r for the record i have discussed these 2 picks with a good friend of mine u might know him yatre, who in turn has already discussed with numerous notablly good players such as the mexican prodigy pollo( #1 in ml limited for those who care about ml rating like revik) and me and yatre both unanimously agree on the imperiosaur pick as it has arised in a situation where numerous good players from montreal all agreed that ss is most definetly > than imperiosaur straight up. So when you tell me my test group doesnt produce very good result or that i get my info from somewhere terrible join #tpf and thats where the people i talk to discuss their pics so when they agree with me i know that its been carefully discussed and from reputable sources, sorry for the flame its just my opinion at something that seemed 100% obvious
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Revik on 2007-07-13 05:21 MDT I love how discussions migrate like this :D
Zsoltsy, by the way: I'm sure you dont have much of a life to waste, anyways...
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Kytep on 2007-07-13 10:21 MDT Nice article, and good points connecting Limited to Constructed. I have also found Mental Magic* to be a great way to improve Constructed skills.
*Mental Magic: Each player gets an identical deck containing cards of a variety of casting costs (usually only one card of each casting cost). The decks contain no land cards, but any card can be played face-down as a painless "rainbow" land. Also, each card can be played as any card with the same casting cost in the format declared for the match (e.g., a Magus of the Scroll card could be played as Shattering Spree). Mental Magic is great at exercising creativity and forces you to really think about some obscure cards that you might not otherwise play in Constructed. And to get good at it, you have to learn a lot of cards you wouldn't otherwise glance at twice.
Kytep
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PV on 2007-07-13 12:37 MDT "The first thing I notice is that we have two great cards in red, which basically eliminates it as a color. The player we are passing to will no doubt be in red no matter which of the two cards we pass, so we might as well ignore red, unless we sense some very strong signals or receive a bigger bomb later."
I disagree with that SO MUCH I cannot begin to explain it :P
If the card is so good your neighbor will jump into the color for that, isn`t it... WORTH TAKING? YOU are feeding him! He has no control over your colors. If you pick magus/bolt and he picks the other, so what?
You should worry about your deck there, instead of trying to build your neighbor`s. In a pack with Rift Bolt, Magus of the Scroll, Lightning Axe and Sulfurous Blast I`d still pick the Blast without second thoughts.
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Revik on 2007-07-13 12:50 MDT by PV on 2007-07-13 14:37 EDT
In a pack with Rift Bolt, Magus of the Scroll, Lightning Axe and Sulfurous Blast I`d still pick the Blast without second thoughts.
Why are pros allowed to have strange pick theory, but i'm not?
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kikimikejiki on 2007-07-13 12:59 MDT because that theory makes sense
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Trebet on 2007-07-13 16:19 MDT Magic = Game
Magic = Game
Magic = Game
Not life, get one! \@__@/
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Trebet on 2007-07-13 16:20 MDT Magic = Game
Magic = Game
Magic = Game
Not life, get one! \@__@/
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coolcreep on 2007-07-13 17:38 MDT PV's theory isn't "weird", it is "correct".
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dv8r on 2007-07-13 18:50 MDT kiki: pollo rates poultice sliver over saltfield recluse. he also says that you can never draft black and he rates looter over fathom seer. gg.
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kikimikejiki on 2007-07-13 21:23 MDT so your going to say pollo is bad? ur from england where ptqs are like 30 ppl , and yea hes wrong about some things big woop
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Revik on 2007-07-13 22:43 MDT First of all, england is better than you, kiki. Second of all, everybody's wrong about some things. You're wrong about most things.
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kikimikejiki on 2007-07-13 23:35 MDT lol ok then whatever you say, youre just defending someone who agrees with u, you for the lose
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dv8r on 2007-07-14 00:59 MDT kiki, you've attacked me multiple times in this comments thread without provocation. one of your principle arguments for being right is that you have discussed your picks with "good players" in #tpf (a channel of which I am member). I'm not saying that Pollo is bad, I'm saying that you are using someone who has draft pick orders even more unconventional than mine (I tend to draft by the book with a few minor exceptions [see leaden fists], and not force combinations, but let them come to me). as you don't come from england, you can't even comment on our ptqs. the reason we had 30 (29 actually) was that there was a nats qualifier at the same time, same location that had 80+ ppl. we have different priorities here. I love how you are not only attacking me, but attacking my whole country now. what right do you have to do this? I'd be very interested to hear, especially as I haven't seen you doing anything recently in the world of magic recently.
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kikimikejiki on 2007-07-14 12:16 MDT well mainly because in montreal there oddly hasnt been an event in about a month and the fact that im banned on ml doesnt help much does it
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krowzy on 2007-07-14 22:10 MDT Just had to say, going to a PTQ >>>>>>> going to a Nats qualifier, wherever you live
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dboy1 on 2007-07-15 08:41 MDT ey u cant fuckin insult canada...canada is tha shit. anyway about the article... wel written and interesting article. i disagree with some of the picks such as the durkadurk and angel picks but aside from that nice article
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coolcreep on 2007-07-15 14:40 MDT i think kiki needs a nice hot cup of stfu.
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poopascoopa on 2007-07-15 18:45 MDT Boring article, bad card choices. But that's what you get for letting teenage punks write about Magic. Kids really don't have a clue, so maybe you should wait until they mature a bit and get better at the game before letting them write articles.
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kikimikejiki on 2007-07-16 03:07 MDT mayb u should stop suckin
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Revik on 2007-07-16 10:00 MDT by poopascoopa on 2007-07-15 20:45 EDT
Boring article, bad card choices. But that's what you get for letting teenage punks write about Magic. Kids really don't have a clue, so maybe you should wait until they mature a bit and get better at the game before letting them write articles.
Then why dont you get off your lazy ass and start writing articles?
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Vlada on 2007-07-19 07:06 MDT by poopascoopa on 2007-07-16 02:45 CET
Boring article, bad card choices. But that's what you get for letting teenage punks write about Magic. Kids really don't have a clue, so maybe you should wait until they mature a bit and get better at the game before letting them write articles.
POOPA IS BACK!!!!!!
LOL i thought they will delete this whole thing by now.
