Written by Sandler on October 19, 2006
Being Bald and Living With It: OMG RG LD IS SO GOOD
by Sandler
With States coming up everyone is scrambling to find out what to play. Many have considered the traditional aggro, UW control, dragon storm, and some form of Urzatron. One of the biggest and maybe most overrated up-and-coming decks is RG LD, also known as Karsten Baby Killer, or Mike Flores.deck.This has been posting some good results in this league and FNM's everywhere. However, want everyone to take another look at it because I for one don’t agree with its success.
Many people have toyed with RG LD variants, but Mike Flores' version is by far the best at the moment. Here is Mike Flores' RG Land D list:
This RG Snow LD would later turn into What won the master: http://www.magic-league.com/deck/24904/standard_w_time_spiral.html
I didn’t like the deck at first. The thought of not going t2 LD is terrifying. Even worse, playing a T2 LD spell and still losing. I decided I would test it a bit and give it a chance. Here are some results from the matches I tested:
Test Match up #1: UW control
Almost all games on the play would go like this: t1 crit, t2 LD, t3 Call of the Herd/Viper/Rumbling Slum, and I would be befuddled when my opponent would have a few more lands, Condemn and some counters, and I still lost. I would lose games in which I didn’t draw three land destruction spells.
Games on the draw were almost horrible. For the most part, auto-losses even with t1 crit T2 LD. My opponent would just go land land and counter the LD into the late game and drop an Akroma or Mesa and I were done. Drawing two out of ten accelerators in any turn past one isn’t very good.
Most games are decided by who goes first. But mostly I found UW control winning even with t2 LD.
Game count: 6-10
Test Match up #2: Boros
After losing to boros in the master I decided I would test it a bit after stupidly dismissing it and clearly underrating it. If I was on the play, most game ones would once again depend on me drawing at least three LD spells. Sadly, sometimes I would go t1 crit t2 LD and I would drop a Viper. This would be answered by land land hammer. On the draw the match up was incredibly hard for me.
Games two and three were drastically worse than the first game, even with multiple Skreds. Boros’ eight pro-red guys post board made it almost impossible unless I drew multiple vipers and Call of the Herds while they managed to not draw any Hammers, Chars, Lightning Helixes or Rift Bolts.
Game count: 3-7
Test Match up #3: Gruul
Most games were like those with boros, except with kird ape. T1 crit t2 LD just isn’t so impressive when you’re staring down a kird ape. I 2-8ed against Gruul in game one. Games two and three post-board just got worse and worse. I dropped t2 viper’s t3 Slums, Skreds, and Storm Binds yet still lost horribly. They would just drop crits and Suit them up with a Cloak and outrace me and it would be over.
Game count: 3-7
Test Match up #4: Urzatron
Of what I heard this was the decks best match up, so I was eager to finally win one. I wasn’t very surprised after winning practically every game where I went t1 accelerator, t2 LD, t3 LD. After going 8-2 pre board, I was thought, “Hey, maybe this isn’t that bad.”
Games two and three when you’re on the draw are not very impressive. Getting t1 crit t2 LD was hard when I would meet multiple Remands, Mana leaks and/or rune snags and then them dropping tron and then something huge. This is another match up where being on the play was crucial but overall a good match up for RG LD.
Game count: 10-5
Test Mach up #5: Dragon Storm
I wasn’t sure what to expect going in to this matchup, but figured it would be good for RG. To my dismay, it wasn’t as good as I thought it would be.
Game one’s on the play I would almost always lose unless I drew a t1 accelerator and four LD spells. Dropping a Viper or a Call of the Herd was never enough pressure to keep them off Dragonstorm. On the draw was nearly impossible, even with the t1 elf/ld spells. They would just Remand a LD spell or drop a signet and go off anyway the following turn. The second game was exactly the same. It was nearly impossible, although I did mange to win two games when I went t1 crit t2/3 LD and solifuge on the play and he didn’t draw any more lands.
Game count: 6-9
My draws were for the most part good at times. But I just found that even the "nuts" were sub-par. I got t1 accelerators more than 90% of the time but still lost. Maybe the blame is on my draws or my opponents’ draws, but I think RG LD is severely overrated.
Although I don’t like this Mike Flores creation, I would just like to say that many people underrate Mike Flores. Many of you M-Lers out there say he is terrible or, "Oh he’s so gay," but you really don’t give him the credit he sometimes deserves.
Enjoy reading
-Sandler
scurvy on 2006-10-19 21:57 EDT Flores has won me three or so trials on here, just by taking his lists and springing them on the metagame. More people should netbarn him for trials. :)
Edit: Why is this article's title so bad? Nothing about being bald OR how good the deck is!
Edit #2: Everyone should write more articles, also.
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theMike on 2006-10-19 22:04 EDT Sweet article, well done.
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:04 EDT hey scurvy can you post links to your trial wins w/ kbbk pls?
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Stryfe- on 2006-10-19 22:12 EDT HAHA FUNNY SHIT
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Wiley on 2006-10-19 22:12 EDT I know this is bizarre but have you ever thought of stoneshaker shaman? Yes no maybe? What about avalanche riders?
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Blah234 on 2006-10-19 22:14 EDT I have to say, good article Sandler. I realized that you know the UW Control match-up isn't as good as most people think which means UW Control doesn't really need Sacred Ground which means they can put GOOD cards in their SB :P
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:16 EDT thnx red-?
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Splattt on 2006-10-19 22:17 EDT this article was pointless..
it just says "i lost a bunch so the deck is bad dont play it"
having trouble with pro red guys?.. try icefall or something SB.. dont just sb jank and lose
why do you talk about LD in the boros / gruul matchups.. you should be sbing it out..
also this article makes no sense.. you say your testing mike flores list (which is a pre TS list..) but then you go on to mention playing with cards that are not even in the list you provided (slum, call of the herd, stormbind)
red i disagree with your opinion on sacred ground in the SB..
its great..
comes in vs tron, Karstan, and if anyone is playing vore its also solid..
T1: Flagstones
T2: Sacred Ground
=
Win
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Pollo on 2006-10-19 22:17 EDT Sandler your intentions are obv, all you want is that people dont play the deck because you fear it !!
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:18 EDT Or maybe this is the truth and I do want everyone to play it..reverse Psicology pollo!
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:19 EDT by Splattt on 2006-10-19 22:17 EDT
why do you talk about LD in the boros / gruul matchups.. you should be sbing it out..
Read a bit closer the ld in those matchups had to do with game 1.
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Splattt on 2006-10-19 22:21 EDT
Read a bit closer the ld in those matchups had to do with game 1.
Sandler he said that the only way he beats RW is if he draws 3 LD spells..
That makes zero sense.. why would he want LD against a deck that opperates off of 1-2 lands and runs like 4 flagstones
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:23 EDT game one i said
the only way he beats RW is if he draws 3 LD spells..
Once again splatt read closer
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Splattt on 2006-10-19 22:24 EDT even if you are talking about game 1 how would LD help you against boros?..
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:25 EDT ON the play going t2 ld when they only have 1-2 lands and they dont have a flagstones would be GOOD.think about it.I said its the only way rg can win g1 and it is.
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Splattt on 2006-10-19 22:28 EDT ok.. so your stratergy against an aggro deck with a curve averaging like 2 mana is to play 3 consecutive land destruction spells (and you only run 8, 4 of which cant target anything outside of a plains or sacred foundry) and them not have any 1cc stuff that matters (seal of fire, icatian javelineers) or flagstones of trokair all of which they run 4..
and why didnt you post the list you actually played with instead of some random pre TS stuff that you say "is the best list out right now" yet it doesnt even run any TS cards
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:32 EDT by Splattt on 2006-10-19 22:28 EDT
ok.. so your stratergy against an aggro deck with a curve averaging like 2 mana
Its the ONLY WAY i think rg can win g1 vs boros....
I posted a pre ts list because i wanted to include the creater of kbbk.
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Splattt on 2006-10-19 22:36 EDT "Many people have toyed with RG LD variants, but Mike Flores' version is by far the best at the moment."
"I decided I would test it a bit and give it a chance. Here are some results from the matches I tested:"
first of all..
Mike Flores' list is NOT the best version because it doesnt even incorporate TS
You say its the best list and that your going to test "it" (we can only assume the list you took the time to post) after which you proceede to test a different deck. I can see why you dont write articles anywhere for real like SCG.
so you are telling me your playing against boros and you have the choice between T2 stone rain and T2 call of the herd that your gonna play the rain?
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:38 EDT I messed up w/ the time i ment by best i ment when the deck went public and tryed to compare is to the other ld decks which were floating around that were bad which makes his the "best".
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Splattt on 2006-10-19 22:42 EDT so i have to assume that someone who messes up writting articles that make no sense doesnt mess up when he is testing..
KBBK is a viable deck.. you might have to actually tweak it (GASP) based on the meta..
maybe SB the cryoclasms if aggro is heavy.. go with apes etc.. and make it a more aggro deck..
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:43 EDT i never said it wasnt viable i just said i didnt like it.If you wanna argue just pm me in mirc im willing to argue w/e you want.
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kikimikejiki on 2006-10-19 22:45 EDT ok flores himself says the deck is terrible fyi in todays scg premium article
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Sandler on 2006-10-19 22:53 EDT srry i dont have an scg account :(
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RidinDirty on 2006-10-19 23:03 EDT mike flores is very cocky irl and has no reason to be, he's maybe above average but not a really good player. Yes he may make good decks, I'll give him that, but I cannot respect him as a player after seeing him irl and listening to his PT top 8 commentaries
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Void06 on 2006-10-19 23:21 EDT If you put mike flores on par of where he really is, It's sad how cocky he acts. His real life constructed rating is something like 1790 last time I checked. That's not terrible but come on...
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VacancyMan on 2006-10-20 00:04 EDT I very much enjoyed this article. It was concise and made the point clear: "I think RG LD is severely overrated." By concise, I mean short, in a good way. Also, bizarre titles are always cool in my book. I also appreciate this article's uniqueness in that, instead of promoting a deck like most other articles, it actually does the opposite. Thank you for your contribution Sandler.
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scurvy on 2006-10-20 00:21 EDT Sandler: hey scurvy can you post links to your trial wins w/ kbbk pls?
scurvy: ...reading is tech?
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sgtpepper87 on 2006-10-20 00:28 EDT why does everyone think this is a good article? ok, maybe i'm a bit spoiled from reading articles i pay for, but all he did was taking a deck and testing against different matchups...
maybe the testing was intense for this article, but the article itself was short and boring.
if he would at least tell us what else to play for states/champs or why rg ld isn't good and what to change in the list, but no word about that.
now let the flaming about me begin :P
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DESTRUCTOR on 2006-10-20 00:41 EDT Bad deck...obviouslly bad testing...so no sorprise that is a bad article...RG ponza is good but not that one...that's really bad (and you tested another version)
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NahHolmes on 2006-10-20 01:17 EDT This article in a nutshell.
So between Birds, Elves, Lands, Into the Norths, and Druids there are 37 Mana sources... Yeah I mean the deck tops out at 4 mana. Playset of Snow Duals, sure, why not? The 4 in 60 chance you will draw it with Scrying Sheets once you already have 3 mana sources greatly outweigh the chance that you will drop one the first 4 turns and wish to god it was a shockland. No Slums, yeah they suck. 4x MD Skred, yeah I mean sure there basically dead against 70+% of control decks. Can't even beat the deck it's designed to beat... Obvoiusly the most superior version of this deck ever made. I mean the 1x Naturalize in the side points to how perfectly balanced this deck is. So in short RG LD is wayyyy overrated, so stop playing it because umm its overrated and it keeps beating me :'(
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ChristPunchr on 2006-10-20 02:00 EDT What were you playtesting with? The list posted and the cards mentioned in the matchups conflict a little...please don't refer to this deck as ponza. Ponza has a pretty straightforward theme, just like sligh. There is even a link to an article about the origin of sligh and ponza in a recent mike flores article. Read it so it's one less deck people will be fucking idiots about and brand anything that shares a card or two with it as a ponza deck.
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KaleGozer on 2006-10-20 05:57 EDT There's nothing wrong with being bald and living with it. Just for the record.
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Meatwarz on 2006-10-20 06:02 EDT Bad one.
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DRGKING2 on 2006-10-20 06:39 EDT Well the thing is...Great Job on your first article...A++ on the efforts.
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Meatwarz on 2006-10-20 07:17 EDT About the Flores:
He's ideas were good in URZA type 2, when the things were easy etc..Now 99% percents of the lists you can see in his articles are simply just some interesting ideas he's toying with, but not a good decklists at all.
And i don't think that adding some LD spells and snow lands to the usual RG Agro is really "designing" of the deck.
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goodrat on 2006-10-20 08:08 EDT Saying that Flores' decks aren't good flies in the face of actually knowing anything about standard metagames for the last several years. Kuroda Style Red, Critical Mass, what ultimately became Jushi Blue...ALL FLORES.DEC
Of course he might be (sorry, is) a terrible player, but seriously he builds good decks. l2magic.
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SteveOB on 2006-10-20 10:35 EDT I would just like to point out splatt is a moron. hes like criticizing someone on thier first article having chronological errors and hes argueing moot points since we all know this deck isn't really that great when its only or less then 50/50 with UW control which it was supposed to be built to beat.
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NahHolmes on 2006-10-20 14:35 EDT The thing is this deck is really good when UW Control and Fungus Fires are like every other deck. It's not 50/50 against UW control, it's a matchup I've played many times and I have yet to lose a match vs. Control even though some were very close on game 3. Your testing was off, your article has errors, what's the deal with you putting pictures of Stormbind up if you don't even play it, the version you play is absolute garbage, and I really think you just made up your percentages to get people to stop playing a deck that beats the dogpiss out of UW control. Speaking of which UW control is overrated, it sucks at the moment. I wish it didn't I love control, but it does.
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Sandler on 2006-10-20 14:53 EDT btw i made a mistake with posting the lists.The list i ment to post was Naholmes list.I posted Flores's list because he started the whole "rg ld" movement.Kind of.Anyway srry for the confusion Ill right my next article in a better format if i do. I tested vs naholmes list not flores's i shouldve stated that and added more to the article but o well my bad.
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snoopster on 2006-10-20 15:27 EDT best article i've ever read. end of story.
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Linkman on 2006-10-20 16:58 EDT After losing to boros in the master I decided I would test it a bit after stupidly dismissing it and clearly underrating it. If I was on the play, most game ones would once again depend on me drawing at least three LD spells. Sadly, sometimes I would go t1 LD t2 LD and I would drop a Viper. This would be answered by land land hammer. On the draw the match up was incredibly hard for me.
/quote
How can you even play a t1 LD spell?
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Sandler on 2006-10-20 17:01 EDT i took out "crit" before LD>Im pretty sure you knew what i ment anyway but making unneccessary comments is always fun
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P_P4E on 2006-10-20 17:09 EDT possibly the worst article ive ever tried to read... where are your fking rumbling slums and call of the herds? they arent in your deck... nice job posting wrong list! and you just proved what ive known and have been saying for weeks that this deck is garbage, and if you win 6 rounds of swiss with it in a row you have to be a wizard in pairings to get tron/tron/tron/tron/tron/tron/tron and then you still should lose prolly 2 rounds...lol. i might not be the highest rated player on this site (and for the record, like it actually matters) but i am a decent enough magic player to realize that any deck with 8 ld spells and 15 creature with more than 1 power and 1 toughness doesnt make for a good rg build... nahholmes got incredibly lucky in all of his matchups and, to his credit, probably outplayed everyone pretty badly. I think that nahholmes in his replay to this article is wrong, because when you test against uw control you have to not play fking retards... and they should pack 3x sacred mesa against you and then its GG when it resolves like it will 80% of the time. Lol any rg deck that looks at an opening hand of land x3 druid into the north stalking yetti and cryoclasm and keeps it 100% is so bad i dont really even know how to put it into correct terms. ANY rg deck that has into the north in it is horrible, because, and ive said it b4, ITS RG!!!! You accelorate into rumbling slum and stalking yetti... and when you dont accelorate into them you play fking draw go with scrying sheets? does anyone see a trend here? playing draw go with rg is GG for them.
bad matchups for this pile:
rg aggro,boros,uw control (built correctly) GW glare (your testing means nothing, bad matchup no matter what you say) a decent fruity pebbles player might even get the better of this pile most of the time lol....
decent matchups:
dragonstorm (about 60-40 you...) tron(same)
zoo? (their land is shaky as is, but i can see them still beating you easily) smallpox (you have 37 cards in your deck that net mana...............................) Normal LD decks that are actually logical, because you have 37 THINGS IN YOUR DECK THAT NET YOU MANA..
omg please everyone play this at states so my friends can smash you... this deck is a joke
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Sandler on 2006-10-20 17:16 EDT what makes this article so bad I explained the mistakes in adding the right list.I shouldve listed Naholmes list after flores list saying thats what it turned into but i didnt.
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Sandler on 2006-10-20 18:45 EDT Fixed
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NahHolmes on 2006-10-20 19:52 EDT I quote myself
"15 of 52 decks were Aggro, one was me so 14 of 51. That's 28% Aggro and I played 6 Control decks and 2 Aggro decks so that's 25% Aggro matchups. Can someone explain were these incredible amounts of luck I keep hearing about came into play? I was as lucky as anyone else who ever won a 52 player tournament, my deck was good for the field and I played smart overall. I just love how all these randoms are like, "Oh your deck sucks, you just got really lucky." Same time if Pollo would have won with my deck they'd be on him balls deep."
Face it bro, RG LD stomps UW Control. There are things you can do to make your UW deck standup to RG aggro but forreal UW control is soooo overrated, why bother? Forreal it sucks, no lie. You should be writing an article on why it sucks, everyone already seems to think RG LD is bad, I hear that more then, "It's so good" but UW control is a hot mess and noone seems to notice. Everyone swears there's this magic UW list that is the end all shit but I still haven't seen it.
I won't be going to States I have other plans that weekend and forreal dropping $50 to drive to a Magic tourney on my weekend is not high on my things to do real soon list. If I did I wouldn't play RG LD that was just a foil to the predictable joke that was the M-L metagame and it happened to pay off. If I were you I wouldn't waste my money and stay home if the best I could do was UW Control because it's really a poor choice with many bad matchups and a lot of potential to get beaten on the draw. Whatever though if you guys ever want to play me I'm around and I have better decks on hold then RG LD.
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Sandler on 2006-10-20 19:55 EDT Naholmes is your IQ 201?
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Sandler on 2006-10-20 19:58 EDT Face is bro you think your know what your talking about but you dont.Forreal your not very smart.Forreal bro forreal
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NahHolmes on 2006-10-20 20:58 EDT My, this place is full of bitter pussies sometimes, and people wonder why I don't go to tourneys IRL anymore. Your article is a sham, your arguements are flimsy at best, and all you have left is to try to make fun of my condescending tone to you. Get real.
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Sandler on 2006-10-20 21:35 EDT Yep.........Naholmes said"I won't be going to States I have other plans that weekend and forreal dropping $50 to drive to a Magic tourney on my weekend is not high on my things to do real soon list. If I did I wouldn't play RG LD that was just a foil to the predictable joke that was the M-L metagame and it happened to pay off. If I were you I wouldn't waste my money and stay home if the best I could do was UW Control because it's really a poor choice with many bad matchups and a lot of potential to get beaten on the draw. Whatever though if you guys ever want to play me I'm around and I have better decks on hold then RG LD."
Who's "bitter" :/
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snoopster on 2006-10-20 22:47 EDT rofl @nahholmes
you have no idea what you're talking about :(
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Streakz on 2006-10-21 01:19 EDT rofl a magic-league argument
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roelof on 2006-10-21 06:12 EDT FWIW i really liked the article.
Well written and good content i guess.
A lot of people have been overrating LD and ponza decks for years, good to see an article like this.
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NahHolmes on 2006-10-21 11:03 EDT I won $100 why would I be bitter?
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kikimikejiki on 2006-10-21 13:05 EDT nahholmes list was subpar didnt even play pendelhaven cmon with 8 1/1s!
