Standard: Sick-o-Tron

Written by Kytep on July 19, 2006



Standard: Sick-o-Tron

by Kytep

Not that it’s unbeatable, but Tron seems to be the # 1 force to be reckoned with in Type 2 right now.  With Nationals just around the corner, I expect many people to continue to hone their Tron decks, since it’s probably one of the “safer” bets to take to Nationals.  It’s time to rage against the Tron machine.  For all those sick of sitting on the other side of the table from Remand-Mana Leak-Compulsive Research-Keiga-Wildfire, I present…Sick-o-Tron!

Sick-o-Tron
Main Deck Sideboard
4 Genju of the Spires
4 Blood Moon
4 Hearth Kami
4 Pyroclasm
4 Seal of Fire
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Char
4 Viashino Sandstalker
4 Orcish Artillery
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Ghost Quarter
18 Mountain
4 Shattering Spree
4 Stone Rain
4 Lava Spike
3 Shock


The Goal: To kill your opponent with Genju/Sandstalker/burn.

The Mechanism: Kill their mana base with Ghost Quarter/Blood Moon, their blockers with Artillery/burn, and them with Genju/Sandstalker/burn.

Synergies:
-Pyroclasm + Orcish Artillery = Wipe their */2’s – and a */4 – with Artillery still on the table
-Pyroclasm + Genju/Sandstalker = Kill blockers, swing for 6 or 4
-Ghost Quarter + Blood Moon = Kill problem non-basics until Moon hits, then problem solved
-Top + Burn = Eke out those last few points of damage FTW sooner
 
The Development of Sick-o-Tron

After getting throttled by Tron many times, I finally decided to just see what kind of “Tron-Killer” deck I could make if I set my mind to it.  It seems to me that Tron’s power is based on card advantage in terms of drawers like Compulsive Research and Tidings, mass control in Wildfire, and multiple mana from each Urzatron land acting as if they have more lands in play than they actually do.  Further, most of these card advantage plays are dependent upon a large and quickly-deployed mana base, i.e., the Urzatron lands and Signets.  If Tron has the mana, there’s not much you can do; they will overwhelm you over time.  So, I decided I would focus on attacking Tron’s mana base first.

I made a list of a lot of Tron-hosing cards, and I noticed that many of them were Red and/or would fit into a mono-Red deck (Blood Moon, Ghost Quarter, Shattering Spree, Hearth Kami, Genju of the Spires).  Genju alone will often kill a control deck in short order, as one would expect from a 1-cc 6-power creature that can start swinging on Turn 3.  But seeing how virtually every deck nowadays is so multicolored and/or dependent on non-basics, Blood Moon and Ghost Quarter seemed like great main deck choices, even if I don’t face Tron.

Stone Rains were originally in the main deck (and may return) as additional threats to Tron and to pick off key lands against other opponents, especially under Blood Moon.  However, I think Pyroclasm is better in that slot, as the main deck is already pretty good against Tron, and after sideboarding, the deck almost auto-wins against Tron (which it should, since that’s its primary design).  I don’t want to risk a lot of Game ones to weenie decks just because I want to hose Tron even worse in Game one.  “Dead is dead enough,” as they say.
 
Play

This is an aggro-control deck; it is not a pure beatdown deck.  Against most decks, you will usually want to play Blood Moon ASAP.  Clear their blockers with Artilleries and burn so Genju’s and Sandstalkers can get through.  Use Kami’s to kill their Signets and/or Jittes.  Every chance you get, slam them with a Genju or Sandstalker, even if it means never playing the Blood Moon in your hand (there are exceptions, of course – e.g., if they’re one mana away from Wildfire, which would kill all of your lands and you have no more in hand and a Blood Moon can stop that Wildfire, then by all means, Blood Moon first, and resume attacking next turn).

Always fry a turn one Birds of Paradise, even if it means throwing a Hammer at it.  Also, don’t be too shy about attacking with a Genju, even if you opponent has blockers out.  Remember, the Genju goes back to hand and only costs R, which usually means that as a worst-case, your Genju effectively reads: “2RR, Sorcery: Sacrifice a Mountain: Target opponent sacrifices an untapped creature.  Return <this> to your hand.”  Since most of your burn is pretty cheap, that’s not a terrible way to use some of your “excess” Mountains.  (Although note that Genju’s and Sandstalkers do tend to tie up your mana, so you don’t want to just throw Mountains away; burn their critters when you can.)

Criticisms

Genju is Fragile: Yes, the 1-toughness can be an issue, especially against burn and many chumpers (e.g., Sakura-Tribe Elder).  In some games, you may want to side these out (see Matchups, below).  However, A) Genju’s come back; B) They make awesome blockers themselves, if needed (kill Slums, Iwamoris, etc.); C) They can flat-out win many games, especially against control.

Genju’s and Sandstalkers are Mana-Intensive: Being able to play 3 Shocks or one Char (that doesn’t damage me) every turn sounds like a good deal and worth 3 mana per turn to me.

Blood Moons Main??: Yep.  Check out all of the non-basic land out there, and what colors are used.  I’d rather side these out for the 15% of Vore/Gruul matches than have to side them back in against the other 85% of the field.

Orcish Artillery Sucks: They may not be popular (yet), but that doesn’t mean they suck.  Their three toughness makes them Pyroclasm-proof, as well as lets them block 2/*’s all day.  They can shoot */2’s (or, after a Pyroclasm, a */4) to get your Genju’s and Sandstalkers through.  They can even act as that last bit of burn by shooting your opponent FTW.  Sure, the three damage to yourself can be a liability sometimes, but that usually only becomes an issue against other aggro decks.  And consider that if you didn’t shoot (or block/shoot, say for an Ape or Watchwolf) their creature, how much damage would you have taken anyway?  Probably more than 3.  These guys end up being key against weenie matchups (which are also becoming more popular to combat Tron).

Only Two Tops?: That’s all I can fit right now; I’m not sure what I’d cut to accommodate more Tops.  Also, since this deck is aggro-control (as opposed to pure aggro or burn), the games can last a bit longer, which means I may risk drawing redundant Tops.  Two seems to work pretty well so far.
 
Card Choices (Main Deck)

Genju of the Spires: As previously mentioned, this card alone can kill a control deck in short order.  As a six-power creature for R that can start swinging on turn three, many games will end by turn five.  The fact that it comes back when it dies and effectively has no summoning sickness (just play it on a Mountain that started the turn in play) is gravy.  Sure, it takes up three mana per turn, but think of it as being able to re-cast three Shocks every turn.  This one’s a no-brainer.

Blood Moon: Type 2 is riddled with non-basics; far more decks use (and depend upon) them than not.  The Moon is almost never useless, and often makes several of my opponent’s cards in hand useless when they don’t have the colors they need.  Plus, of course it hoses Urzatron lands.
 
Hearth Kami: Signets and Jittes are everywhere.  These guys are great uncounterable (assuming they hit play early) artifact destruction.  Plus, they’re nice beatdown creatures as they have two power and only cost two mana.  Kami’s usually hit for at least two per game, making them like a Shock (or more) and a Shatter in one card.

Pyroclasm: As mentioned above, this used to be Stone Rain, and I may go back to the Rain.  But swarm decks are increasing in popularity, making Pyroclasm a good main deck choice.  Note that with the exception of the Kami’s, every creature in the deck is effectively Pyroclasm-proof.  And since I want to clear their blockers to swing with my Genju’s and Sandstalkers (let alone wanting to kill their threats to me), Pyroclasm seems like a great fit.

Seal of Fire: Helps clear blockers as well as kill opponent.  Especially nice because with one in play, I don’t have to worry so much about things like Ninja of the Deep Hours or a newly-Jitted 2-toughness creature, even when I’m tapped out.  I can also see if my Pyroclasm resolves, then pop Meloku (be careful with that one; if you do wait until ‘clasm resolves before hitting Meloku, they can make more fliers; if you pop Mel first and then Pyroclasm, you kill the fliers as well, but risk a countered ‘clasm and a wasted Seal.  It’s a risk tradeoff…).  Great for killing turn one BoPs too.

Volcanic Hammer: Kird Apes abound.  Hammer can also help deal with five-toughness creatures (e.g., Slum, Iwamori, Keiga) with the help of a single Seal or Artillery.  Of course, they can also help burn the opponent out faster.

Char: This was originally Shock, but Burning-Tree Shaman and Meloku have convinced me that Char should be in the main deck.  This also helps me burn the opponent out faster, should they get board control.

Viashino Sandstalker: Don’t think of them as creatures; think of them as Chars that come back to your hand and don’t deal damage to you.  Note that, like Genju’s, they’re Wrath/Pyroclasm/Wildfire-proof.  Between Genju and Sandstalker, I’ll almost always rather have a Genju, but Sandstalkers act as nice Genju substitutes, since I can only run 4 Genju’s.
 
Orcish Artillery: As mentioned, Artilleries are key against opposing creature decks, especially swarm decks.  They can block 2/*’s all day, they can shoot */2’s, block/shoot */3’s, and kill bigger creatures with the help of the other burn, including Pyroclasm (which, by the way, they can survive).  I’ll take three damage if it gets my Genju through to hit my opponent for six or protects me from the much more than 3 damage I would have taken had their creature remained on the table.

Sensei’s Divining Top: Works well with Burn and/or decks that don’t need much mana in general, as Tops allow you to find your threats more quickly (e.g., burn, Blood Moon), rather than drawing more land you don’t need.  The draw capability can also let you find, draw, and pop off that last Char/Hammer a turn sooner to win the game.

Ghost Quarter: Again, the prevalence of non-basics makes the environment ripe for this.  As the deck is mono-colored, it virtually never matters that they’re colorless.  They help a lot against Tron, killing Urzatron components.  And they work great with Blood Moon – Quarters disrupt the opponent until Blood Moon comes out, then once the Moon is out, Quarters aren’t really needed anymore, so it works out great that they turn into Mountains.

Mountain: Should be obvious.

Card Choices (Sideboard)
 
Shattering Spree: Kami’s are great, but I’ve found they often aren’t enough against Tron.  You only run five Kami’s, and Tron runs four (or more) Signets, and also has ways to dig for them.  Plus, Tron can counter (or bounce/counter) the Kami’s.  Sprees’ replicate ability is perfect here: Not only can they kill multiple Signets, but they can overwhelm opposing countermagic by multiple-Spree-ing their key artifacts (Signets/Jitte/Pithing Needle)
 
Stone Rain: Again, helps keep Urzatron off the board early.  Also useful in general against control and/or very multi-colored decks, by killing what few basics they may have under a Blood Moon, or killing off their key coloring lands.

Lava Spike: There are some matchups (e.g., Gruul, Vore) where it will be difficult to gain board control.  For those, you’ll probably just want to race your opponent by throwing burn at their head.  Lava Spikes are perfect for this.

Shock: See Lava Spike, above.  Shocks also help against opposing weenie decks (can take out Char for Shock).
 
Matchups

I’ve had excellent results in my playtesting thus far, especially against Tron (as would be expected).  I’ve also held my own very well against opposing creature-based decks.  Here are some of the key matchups:

Tron: Nearly an auto-win – especially after sideboarding – as it should be, since that’s what this deck’s primarily designed for.  Disrupt their mana (especially Tron lands and Signets), then beat them silly.  Remember to multi-Spree their Signets if you have the mana available to make sure you get them past the counters.
Sideboard: -4 Artillery, -4 Seal of Fire, +4 Shattering Spree, +4 Stone Rain

Owling Mine: Also usually a cakewalk, especially after sideboarding.  Their Howling Mines feed you more burn, and your artifact destruction kills their Owls.
Sideboard: -4 Blood Moon, -4 Pyroclasm, -3 Artillery, +4 Shattering Spree, +4 Lava Spike, +3 Shock

Solar Flare: Similar to the Tron matchup, they’re highly vulnerable to Ghost Quarter and Blood Moon, not to mention Genju’s and Sandstalkers.  Basically treat them like Tron: Kill the mana base (especially their Signets and sources of Black), then kill them.
Sideboard: -4 Artillery, -4 Seal of Fire, +4 Shattering Spree, +4 Stone Rain

Magnivore: I haven’t faced Vore with this deck yet, but I think you’ll probably need to revert to burn mode, as they’ll probably not let you have much mana.  Fight land destruction with land destruction, but Blood Moon will again be less effective due to their use of Red (although taking away their Blue isn’t terrible).
Sideboard: -4 Blood Moon, -4 Pyroclasm, -3 Artillery, +4 Stone Rain, +4 Lava Spike, +3 Shock

Gruul/S.Stompy: My matchups here have not been bad; maybe 50/50.  Board control is much more difficult in this one; you’ll probably have to switch to burn mode.  Note that their Elders, Reaches, and general use of Red make Blood Moon less effective.  Remember to fry their Turn 1 Birds!
Sideboard: -4 Blood Moon, -3 Hearth Kami, +4 Lava Spike, +3 Shock

Zoo: A bit better matchup than Gruul (i.e., it is favorable to Sick-o-Tron), as more of their creatures only have 2 or 3 toughness.  Although they play Red, Blood Moon can be effective in that it neutralizes their other colors.  Hammer their Apes, Char their Shamans, and Pyroclasm everything else.  Stone Rain anything that produces any color other than Red.
Sideboard: -4 Hearth Kami, +4 Stone Rain

Ghost Husk: Pyroclasm and Artillery are key to keeping their blockers (and attackers) at bay.  Remember to consider what Husk can sac, how big it can get, and when a Ruskala can kill your Artillery in response to your Pyroclasm.  Of course, smoke their Confidants when you can.
Sideboard: -4 Hearth Kami, +3 Shock, +1 Lava Spike

Critical Plax: I haven’t faced Plax yet, but it seems to me that their untargetable capabilities will make board control difficult to impossible.  Thankfully, they play a lot of non-basics, so hopefully you can keep their blue mana off the board.  Use Artilleries to blast the opponent and throw your burn at their head.
Sideboard: -3 Genju, -4 Hearth Kami, -4 Sandstalker, +4 Stone Rain, +4 Lava Spike, +3 Shock

Heartbeat: I haven’t faced this yet, and it doesn’t seem very popular lately.  In any case, this one is a race.  Don’t worry about board control, just burn them out.  Of course, Blood Moon is basically useless against Heartbeat since they play basics.
Sideboard: -4 Blood Moon, -3 Pyroclasm, +4 Lava Spike, +3 Shock

That’s it.  Enjoy Sick-o-Tron!
-Kytep


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Comments:
by on 2006-07-19 19:05 CET

first, and not bad... not THAT good of a deck, but... Dude, just cuz you added Orcish Artillery, my favorite 3cc tech card, EVER!


by Xkiller59 on 2006-07-19 19:05 CET

NEDM!!!


by on 2006-07-19 19:06 CET

did someone just make a [EDIT] bad [/EDIT] YTMND reference on M-L?!


by Teknolink on 2006-07-19 19:12 CET

1st! In my dreams:p


by Custode on 2006-07-19 19:43 CET

The problem: It beats tron only (bloodmoon is bad btw) but nothing else probably :)


by Manipulation on 2006-07-19 19:44 CET

It's alright, looking at it, not having played it, but not great. Semi-original at least.

Don't use Ghost Quarter and Blood Moon in the same deck, though. Most people run few basics but allowing them to snag one hurts your Blood Moon.


by sgt_pepper on 2006-07-19 20:08 CET

"Gruul: My matchups here have not been bad; maybe 50/50. Board control is much more difficult in this one; you’ll probably have to switch to burn mode. Note that their Elders, Reaches, and general use of Red make Blood Moon less effective. Remember to fry their Turn 1 Birds!"

O_o what gruul deck uses birds, elders and reaches????


by Kytep on 2006-07-19 20:30 CET

by Custode on 2006-07-19 14:43 CDT

The problem: It beats tron only (bloodmoon is bad btw) but nothing else probably :)


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1) How do you know it beats Tron only? (I've personally beaten several other decks)

2) Why do you think Blood Moon is bad? Have you seen the number of non-basics in this environment?? Do you know how many non-Tron opponents I have frustrated the piss out of when I drop a Moon? (a lot...)


by Kytep on 2006-07-19 20:34 CET

by Manipulation on 2006-07-19 14:44 CDT

Don't use Ghost Quarter and Blood Moon in the same deck, though. Most people run few basics but allowing them to snag one hurts your Blood Moon.


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But you have to draw the Blood Moon for it to work. While you're waiting for Moon to come out, you don't want your opponent setting up Urzatron, or getting all the colors they need. Remember that use of Quarters is at your discretion, and since there are only 4 of them (and the other 18 lands are all Mountains), like I mentioned in the article, the fact that they only produce colorless has never been an issue. I rarely actually pop them against my opponent's lands, but they're a huge help when I do. Definitely worth the extremely small risk of being color-screwed in a mono-red deck with 18 mountains and a lot of colorless in the cc and activation costs...


by Kytep on 2006-07-19 20:38 CET

by sgtpepper87 on 2006-07-19 15:08 CDT

"Gruul: My matchups here have not been bad; maybe 50/50. Board control is much more difficult in this one; you’ll probably have to switch to burn mode. Note that their Elders, Reaches, and general use of Red make Blood Moon less effective. Remember to fry their Turn 1 Birds!"

O_o what gruul deck uses birds, elders and reaches????


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Sorry, should be Stompy, not Gruul (decks that run Birds, Elders, Reaches, Apes, Shamans, Slums, etc.)


by Koen on 2006-07-19 20:40 CET

Blood Moon can just be Repealed at end of turn before you'd want to fully abuse the Tron.


by Kaesh on 2006-07-19 21:12 CET

I don't see how this could possibly beat tron more than heezy gruul or zoo.


by on 2006-07-19 21:28 CET

Pfft... get this garbage off of here. At least playtest your matchups other then Tron before posting such an article. It's obvious you have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to matchups other then looking at a decklist. I don't even think you did that right.

Sea Stompy doesnt, and NEVER has, played Elder or Reach.


by on 2006-07-19 21:53 CET

Bloodmoon is bad?!
You´re not playing the same Standard i am...


by Shagrath on 2006-07-19 21:58 CET

This guy must have his brain directly connected with his ass.


by Kytep on 2006-07-19 22:21 CET

by Koen on 2006-07-19 15:40 CDT

Blood Moon can just be Repealed at end of turn before you'd want to fully abuse the Tron.


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1) They need blue mana to cast Repeal, which is difficult for Tron to do under Blood Moon. They'd likely need a Signet out, which is also difficult for them against 4 Hearth Kami's and 4 Shattering Sprees (post-side).

a) If they rely on a pre-existing Signet, as mentioned, 4 Kami's and 4 Sprees can often handle that.

b) If they want cast a new Signet and use it immediately (on their turn), A) They will need 5 lands to do it; B) I can just re-cast Blood Moon on my turn and they're tapped out, making their Repeal an expensive Reach Through Mists.

c) If they cast a new Signet and wait until my turn to use it, again, I can use Spree/Kami to kill it. If they Repeal in response to Spree/Kami, I can just re-cast Moon.

2) Once they bounce Blood Moon, my Ghost Quarters come back as well, which I can then immediately use to break up their Tron.

3) Consider how they'd "abuse Tron", what they'd need in play to do it, and what the consequences would the the following turn(s) if they did it, considering that I now (obviously) have my Blood Moon back in hand:

a) Keiga: Need Tron + Signet, or Tron + U-producing land. Unless they have 2 U-producers out (again, tough for them w/all my art destruction), they're not going to be able to counter the Moon my next turn. A single Keiga under Blood Moon isn't going to beat me, or even slow me down much (I could even still attack w/Genju, Keiga blocks, it and Genju die, Genju comes back, I recast and resume beating down next turn.

b) Meloku: See Keiga, above, but I can also Char Mel, and burn/Pyro away what few Illusions he may drop.

c) Tidings: OK, so they give up their countering ability (unless they have THREE U-producers) to draw 4 cards and I drop Blood Moon again. Fine by me.

d) Wildfire: Do they want to keep Tron after WF? If so, that's waiting until they have 7 lands in play, which is Turn 7. They're dead by then, or even if they're not, they're close to dead, they're tapping out their color sources to WF, and Blood Moon will likely come back soon. Or I just throw a couple more burn spells at them. Let Tron go? Fine. We each have a couple (if any) lands in play and the game starts over, with them at a lot less than 20 life. Note that, with the exceptions of Artillery (sided out) and Kami (sacced to kill Signets anyway), my creatures (Genju and Sandstalker) are WF-proof. My burn continues, and I get to try to drop Blood Moon again as soon as I get 3 lands.

e) Demonfire: They burn me for 7 - 10 (the first damage they will have done to me all game), likely tapping out their color sources, and Blood Moon comes back next turn. Again, fine by me.

Some of my Tron opponents have managed to Repeal the Moon, but they usually meet one of the fates I described above. It's not really a problem.


by Spyx on 2006-07-19 22:29 CET

did you actually test the deck?


by Kytep on 2006-07-19 22:49 CET

by Spyx on 2006-07-19 17:29 CDT

did you actually test the deck?


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Yes, against a fairly decent variety of decks. As expected, it whips Tron and most of the other control variants I faced. But it also holds its own very well against aggro - even aggro backed by burn. The burn, Artilleries, and Pyroclasm really help control the board, allowing for Genju/Sandstalker beatdown.

Try the deck just for a few matches. I think you'll like it and be surprised at its success.


by on 2006-07-19 23:55 CET

Sowing Salt. Try that against Tron.



P.S. Nice sideboard. You might want to try Flames of the Blood Hand. it does 4 damage. side it in against decks.


by Vodka_drink on 2006-07-20 00:00 CET

i played against it...it seems strong though i think it needs bigger creatures for sure

vodka


by YWNightmare on 2006-07-20 01:30 CET

- 4 viashino
- 2 tops
- 4 pyroclasm

+ 3 zo-zu
+ 4 giant solifuge
+ 3 shock

SB:

- 3 shock

+ 3 Pyroclasm

_BrunoN_


by bertu on 2006-07-20 02:05 CET

Artilleries and Sandstalkers and (semi)Wastelands and 6/1 attackers.

This is 1997 all over again.

Nice deck for the memories it brings, but awful for everything else (i.e., beating other decks)


by Kytep on 2006-07-20 02:19 CET

by bertu on 2006-07-19 21:05 CDT

Artilleries and Sandstalkers and (semi)Wastelands and 6/1 attackers.

This is 1997 all over again.

Nice deck for the memories it brings, but awful for everything else (i.e., beating other decks)


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Yeah, it's a bit inspired by the original 1996/97 Sligh decks, which if you recall, also looked extremely janky at first and were basically designed to beat the # 1 deck of the time (Necro). And Sligh didn't turn out too bad... :)


by iKe on 2006-07-20 02:40 CET

I would take out tops and viashino and add 2 flames of the blood hand and 4 giant sofiluge. This will have a good matchup vs tron but I don't think it will do good vs any decent aggro decks. Many of zoo and grull's creatures have 3 toughness or more so pyroclasm doesnt do much to them and ghost husk and other b/w stuff have paladin en-vec which by looking at your deck i see that it will completly own you plus they can mortify your genjus and block your stalkers. ww/r u might have a chance against if they dont draw paladin en-vec. I don't think this deck will be able to compete with any good current t2 decks.


by bertu on 2006-07-20 02:48 CET

Except that in 2006, 80% of the field is not Tron.

Even against Tron this deck isn't as eficient as possible. I bet that if you test it exhaustively against a decent player the matchup won't go much better than 50% pre-board.


by C-Board on 2006-07-20 04:47 CET

lol

this is the worst deck that has gotten an article ive ever seen, get this crap off here, its stuff like this that make ppl think m-l is full of stains (which it is)


by on 2006-07-20 06:19 CET

blockers with Artillery/burn

WHAT BLOCKERS?????
there blockers are keiga which is a 5/5 and theyll have counter back up and the other is a 6/6 UNTARGETABLE

so i have but one question:
WTF is this deck gonna do against a 6/6 flying, trampling, untargetable leviathan???


by YWNightmare on 2006-07-20 08:24 CET

kfcman....u cant read can u?...ur just another nerd that plays with a copy from a tron downloaded from the net and thinks that nothing can beat his deck...
when he talked about blockers he wasnt talking about Tron...but things that can get in the way of genju and viashino.
and ur lame question is answered with another question:
WhoTF said that u would put that into play???
at least look at the deck first...then talk...lame,BTW...who uses that piece of crap in tron?? copy/past rulz right?...

_BrunoN_


by WasD on 2006-07-20 11:10 CET

the deck seems to be good, but it also needs a lot of playtesting to be tuned to high gaming level


by on 2006-07-20 16:19 CET

what about weight of spires ?


by DRINKALCOHOL on 2006-07-20 17:35 CET

Pretty much everyone who said the deck sucks should jump off a bridge. Having orcish artillery makes this the coolest deck I've seen in awhile.
And I playtested it. You would have to be a total idiot to lose to tron with this deck.

Def should have Flames in SB, any time that you're going to side in extra burn (gruul/vore), is gonna be because you need to burn the player.

Weight of spires relies on nonbasic, and the goal of this deck is to get rid of it, so don't use that.

Lol, Simic tron is wack.


by DRINKALCOHOL on 2006-07-20 17:41 CET

Plus Flames can't be prevented.


by sui_slush on 2006-07-20 18:47 CET

This is seriously the worst deck I have ever seen. A mono red deck might be viable, but it sure as hell isn't this one.


by Kaesh on 2006-07-20 22:27 CET

Sligh didn't look janky, it was underpowered, but it made up for that in consistency and flexibility. This on the other hand, is just an incoherent heap of hate-cards.


by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-21 02:04 CET

NEDM 4tw!!!!!

Seriously, the same problem rears its head for this deck as the last mono red deck:

C O P / S T O R Y C I R C L E


On another note, the "synergies" listed are fucking hilarious. Example of a synergy:

Peace of mind+shard phoenix+cursed scroll+ensnaring brige

have a bonus synergy:

Scroll rack+life from the loam

Get it? They are several cards, whos abillities create a very strong SINGLE effect, similar to a combo. In fact, a synergy is basically a combo, except combo's are supposed to create a degenerate game state, that causes a near-automatic win.

Combo=High tide+palinchron

Synergy=Squee+intuition

Get it now? Synergies are basically two cards working perfectly together.

You might as well have listed land and your creatures as a synergy too. I didn't even bother to read the article past those retarded fucking "synergies".

Your deck could do fine, I'm not really sure on that, but honestly, learn your terminology.
I doubt you would use "turgor pressure" in a paper about protein synthesis. That basically means; "don't use terminology that doesn't apply to the subject in a written work".


by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-21 04:13 CET

No spam intended, but I just peeped at the matchups...so let me get this straight...every single matchup is favorable?

I find that very hard to believe.


by Kytep on 2006-07-21 04:58 CET

by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-20 23:13 CDT

No spam intended, but I just peeped at the matchups...so let me get this straight...every single matchup is favorable?

I find that very hard to believe.


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No, I only wrote that 3 matchups were favorable (and implied a 4th), and I listed Stompy at 50/50. For the rest, I didn't say whether or not they were favorable, I just suggested strategies to use against them.

NO deck will be favorable against EVERYTHING, that's a ridiculously unrealistic standard. Every deck (even the net-decks) has at least one weakness, usually many. For example, as you mentioned, this deck is weak against CoP: Red. I'll accept that, especially since CoP: Red isn't nearly as popular as e.g. Tron right now.

Oh, and as for your synergy comments, I don't mean to embarrass you, but you might want to consider looking a word up first before making fun of someone else for not knowing its meaning:

Source: www.m-w.com

Main Entry: syn·er·gy
Pronunciation: 'si-n&r-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Etymology: New Latin synergia, from Greek synergos working together
1 : SYNERGISM; broadly : combined action or operation
2 : a mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements (as resources or efforts)

Main Entry: syn·er·gism
Pronunciation: 'si-n&r-"ji-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin synergismus, from Greek synergos
: interaction of discrete agencies (as industrial firms), agents (as drugs), or conditions such that the total effect is greater than the sum of the individual effects

As in, "Pyroclasm and Orcish Artillery interact to create a greater total effect (kill all */2's as well as a */4) than they create alone (kill only all */2's or only a single */2)."

Get it? Good.

Kytep


by Kytep on 2006-07-21 05:08 CET

by Kaesh on 2006-07-20 17:27 CDT

Sligh didn't look janky, it was underpowered, but it made up for that in consistency and flexibility.

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Sligh didn't look janky? Are you kidding me, or are you just forgetting your history? Orcish Librarian? Ironclaw Orcs? Artillery/Cannoneers? Goblins of the Flarg? (played WITH Dwarven Lieutenant and Dwarven Traders, btw), Brass Man? Brothers of Fire?

Even the creators called it, "a really goofy red deck". It was considered EXTREMELY janky at the time; it took a LOT of wins to convince people to take the deck seriously.

Original Sligh-brary: http://www.qtm.net/~jboes/Magic/sligh.htm

Kytep


by Kytep on 2006-07-21 05:19 CET

by iKe on 2006-07-19 21:40 CDT

I would take out tops and viashino and add 2 flames of the blood hand and 4 giant sofiluge. This will have a good matchup vs tron but I don't think it will do good vs any decent aggro decks. Many of zoo and grull's creatures have 3 toughness or more so pyroclasm doesnt do much to them and ghost husk and other b/w stuff have paladin en-vec which by looking at your deck i see that it will completly own you plus they can mortify your genjus and block your stalkers. ww/r u might have a chance against if they dont draw paladin en-vec. I don't think this deck will be able to compete with any good current t2 decks.


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Thank you for your constructive comments, iKe. I agree that Paladins are a problem; that's something I anticipated from the beginning. I considered using Icy's in the sb to deal with Paladin and other problem (i.e., large) creatures, such as Slum. I've decided to try Bottled Cloister against decks for which I'm ill-equipped to control the creature board. So far, I'm 1-for-1 in those matches (it was against Critical Plax) with the Cloister's help. I'll see how it goes...


The problem I have with Flames is they seem to take too much mana against Vore; when they stop killing my lands and I can start getting my fire through, they've dropped a vore. That's why I went with Lava Spike (even though it makes vore bigger). I'll probably give Flames another shot, though.

As for Solifuge, I'm not clear on your rationale; would you mind expanding on that, please? I really like the fact that Viashino doesn't die to Pyroclasm, Wrath, Wildfire, Elves, or Elders (although it is obviously vulnerable to countermagic, in addition to being mana-intensive).

Kytep


by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-21 06:21 CET

I am not referring to the dictionary definition, I am referring to the MAGIC meaning. Mana could be viewed as synegetic with your entire deck, based on that definition.


by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-21 07:03 CET

Sligh was a deck that was based on a firm theory of consistancy:

1/3 creatures
1/3 burn
1/3 land


Your deck is not exactly to alike sligh. Boros decks are more similar because of average casting cost.
Shit doesn't exceed three and even things that are above three. Your deck is a joke, when held up to Reuben's deck(quite possibly the archetype's perfection).

2.15 versus the average cc of a deck that was basically...

4x jackal pup
4x ironclaw orcs
4xball lightning
4xmogg fantastic
2xgoblin vandal
2xmogg flunkies
1xviashino snadstalker

4xshock
4xincinerate
4xfireblast
4xcursed scroll
2x hammer of bogardan

4xwasteland
17xmountain

average cc: 1.51

2.15
- 1.51
______
0.64

Sorry, big difference. Keep in mind that fireblast is 0.001 in that equation because it's casting cost is seldom payed.

To further expand; you have twelve spells that target your opponent. There are sixteen creatures. Finally, there are ten spells that are unrelated, one effects alot of decks, in a deterimental way, two ensure burn(possibly) and four get rid of weenies. There is adifferent metagame in effect but still, lets look at a boros deck briefly...

3xisamaru
4xsavannah lions
4xleonin skyhunter
3xkami of ancient law
3x paladin en vec
4xnew pump knight

4xseal of fire
4xchar
2xhand of the blood flame
4xlightning helix
3xglorious anthem

4xsacred foundry
4xbattlefield forge
8xplains
2xboros garrison
4xmountain

that ahs an average casting cost of 2.02

That could easily be rounded out to match the deck or Reuben. KKeep in mind that your deck is mono red, which makes it closer. Look at the spells though:

14xtargetted burn
21xcreatures
3x spells that make creatures better
land

When you look at that design, you see that the original idea of sligh(do initial damage with creatures and use burn to end game) is better fulfilled, than your own.
You have no creatures that do four damage within the first three turns, you have an enchantment that CAN do six on turn three. That alone pretty much ends comparison. Your deck is burn, not sligh. A typical boros deck is more sligh than your deck.

Leave sligh out of this.


by Kytep on 2006-07-21 14:54 CET

by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-21 02:03 CDT

When you look at that design, you see that the original idea of sligh(do initial damage with creatures and use burn to end game) is better fulfilled, than your own.
You have no creatures that do four damage within the first three turns, you have an enchantment that CAN do six on turn three. That alone pretty much ends comparison. Your deck is burn, not sligh. A typical boros deck is more sligh than your deck.

Leave sligh out of this.

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My point in referring to Sligh was not that my deck was Sligh, worked like Sligh, or was as good as Sligh. My point was simply that Sligh looked very janky at first, so a deck should not be judged by a first-blush glance, as many here have clearly done.

Kytep


by Kaesh on 2006-07-21 20:04 CET

Kytep:
It was considered janky at the time, because Magic has been very primitive then. If you would compare it to other decks from that period right now, you would be closer to thinking that it was the only somewhat properly constructed deck at that time.
ChristPunchr:
The difference between combo and synergy is that combo is a group of cards that are run specifically to create a completely new effect, while synergy implies that the card do not depend on each other, but simply augment.
Also, the deck you posted is hardly Sligh, it comes form the time where the Sligh ideas already got pretty much outdated. What you wrote about Sligh is completely wrong as well. Sligh is a creature deck. Real Sligh never ran anything close to 1/3 burn, 11-12 was the max.
Cards like Ball Lightning don't belong in Sligh, but I am too tired right now to explain why.


by Kytep on 2006-07-21 22:02 CET

by Kaesh on 2006-07-21 15:04 CDT

Kytep:
It was considered janky at the time, because Magic has been very primitive then. If you would compare it to other decks from that period right now, you would be closer to thinking that it was the only somewhat properly constructed deck at that time.

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I agree that Magic was very primitive then, but today's Magic will (hopefully) seem at least somewhat "primitive" 10 years from now (it would suck if we could not come up with any significantly new ways of thinking for 10 years). But that's the nature of new ideas: they look janky at first, because they use new/unused cards and break old assumptions. That's not to say that every janky-looking deck (including mine) is good (most are not), but when there is a true evolution, few people catch on at first, and many call it crap, just like what is happening here. So I'm not sweating the slams much; they'd be there whether the deck was actually crap or whether it was a ground-breaking, fundamental-shifting archetype.

Even though we're now 10 years later than original Sligh, I truly doubt that if it were built today, that most people would appreciate it. Imagine if I had posted a deck containing Orcish Librarians and Goblins of the Flarg. Would that have been accepted as "good"? I doubt it... Even by today's standards, I think that 1996 Necro would look like lot better construct than Jay Schneider's original Sligh/Geeba.

Kytep


by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-21 23:35 CET

I wasn't saying the deck is the posterboy for the archetype, essentially. I was saying that it is an example of the archetypy perfected. When the deck reared its head in 95/96 and that deck was from pt:Seattle(98), I would be hesistant to call the archetype outdated...Especially since the archetype continued to see play until "the big roatation" in extended. I would refer you to magiccampus.com, but that site is gone now.

As for the disagreeing about the thirds thing, I guess it is just a difference in opinions.

Needless to say, I would be more inclined to compare this deck to burn, than a sligh deck...especially when you consider how it works.

"synergy implies that the card do not depend on each other, but simply augment."

grats, you shortened what I said.

To further address what Kaesh said about my the example of 'Rubin's deck; No doubt that deck is far different from the original sligh deck...
Look what you had available back then. Honestly, you are a great deck builder and player, likely to be far better than myself but that is a rediculously fucking stupid thing to point out. You could easily make the same statement about how white/blue control decks aren't white blue control decks because they greatly differ from, say...Zack Dolan's deck.

I know white/blue is a somewhat weak example but I am tired and just got back from work. You're smart guys, you'll get my point.

Either way, if this deck is half as good as the writer suggests, I expect it to be dominating in future masters events. We'll have to see I guess.


Edit: Also in regards to what Kaesh said about sligh..."When you look at that design, you see that the original idea of sligh(do initial damage with creatures and use burn to end game)"

Uhm, sorry burn is reach in a red weenie deck ninety percent of the time, or was...I don't care what you say, a boros deck works way more like sligh did/does than this burn deck.


by animefan8714 on 2006-07-22 04:17 CET

I don't know if I'm playing against bad players, or if they're just getting unlucky, but everytime I've verused this deck with URg Tron (4 times now) I've beaten it in 2/3.

-animefan8714


by on 2006-07-23 11:17 CET

"Shattering Spree: Kami’s are great, but I’ve found they often aren’t enough against Tron. You only run five Kami’s, and Tron runs four (or more) Signets, and also has ways to dig for them."


Illegal deck to boot! Man it's gettin worse.


by Malhavoc on 2006-07-23 11:20 CET

I used this deck in the master, and made 4-0-2, then drop. Not a bad result, given that I've never played T2 before :-D ..anyway, I think what this deck needs to be improved is a better mana curve. There are too many cc3 spells (viashino, blood moon, catapult, stone rain, char), so maximizing the available mana is sometime difficult. I'm not sure about what should be changed, but maybe viashino could be dropped to 3, and catapults may could go to the sideboard, swapped with some cc1/cc2 spells. Just my 2c, anyway.


by Kytep on 2006-07-23 16:38 CET

by mark_dunn on 2006-07-23 06:17 CDT

"Shattering Spree: Kami’s are great, but I’ve found they often aren’t enough against Tron. You only run five Kami’s, and Tron runs four (or more) Signets, and also has ways to dig for them."


Illegal deck to boot! Man it's gettin worse.


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The "five Kami's" is a typo introduced by M-L's editors; my writing said "4 Kami's". Try looking at the decklist, rather than pinning your "SEE?? SEE?? I found something wrong!" crap on an obvious typo buried in the article.

Kytep


by Kytep on 2006-07-23 17:42 CET

by Malhavoc on 2006-07-23 06:20 CDT

I used this deck in the master, and made 4-0-2, then drop. Not a bad result, given that I've never played T2 before :-D ..anyway, I think what this deck needs to be improved is a better mana curve. There are too many cc3 spells (viashino, blood moon, catapult, stone rain, char), so maximizing the available mana is sometime difficult. I'm not sure about what should be changed, but maybe viashino could be dropped to 3, and catapults may could go to the sideboard, swapped with some cc1/cc2 spells. Just my 2c, anyway.


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Glad to hear you're having success! Thank you very much for reporting it! (And you also have a special distinction via-a-vis most posters here: You actually tried it before commenting on it!)

Yeah, I agree the mana curve is problematic, and I'm working on it. Viashinos can probably be reduced; maybe even eliminated. I've been experimenting with a couple of ways to improve the curve:

1) Lower-cc threats, a la aggro Red. I've been tinkering with Frenzied Goblin (can help get Genju's through, but that's really mana-intensive), Godo's Irregulars (a bit more burn on a stick), and/or Frostling. Problem is, all 2-cc and less Red weenies are vulnerable to Pyroclasm, and most are vulnerable to Orzov Pontiff. (Pontiff's not terrible; I can handle a single matchup being bad, but Pyroclasm is much more prevalent.)

2) Signets earlier in the curve so Wildfire, Bottled Cloister, and/or the aforementioned 3-cc's can come out sooner. I think this has a bit more potential; it certainly seems less fragile than a bunch of 1/1's

I'd really like to keep the Blood Moons in if possible, because this environment really is extremely ripe for them. My base recipe is 4 Blood Moon, 4 Genju, 4 Kami, and 4 Ghost Quarter, which is not a bad start to a good mana curve. Add your own spices to taste!

Kytep


by Kytep on 2006-07-23 22:06 CET

Thanks to everyone who contributed constructive comments. For those interested, here is my most recent version, adapted for a better mana curve:

Sick-o-Tron v2.1
4 Genju of the Spires
4 Seal of Fire
4 Hearth Kami
4 Pyroclasm
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Izzet Signet
4 Blood Moon
4 Orcish Artillery
4 Bottled Cloister
4 Ghost Quarter
20 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Shattering Spree (control/Tron)
4 Mogg Sentry (control)
3 Zo-Zu (control)
4 Icy Manipulator (Paladin/fatties)

[Edit]: Artillery back in for Stalkers (deck already good against control; needed help against creatures). Pyroclasm instead of Wildfire in main, Hammers back in.

Signets help with curve; if a Genju and/or Cloister is out, you're usually using a lot of mana.

Cloisters are helpful in general, but are especially key against larger and/or untargetable creatures. Cloister keeps feeding you Mountains, so you can keep attacking with Genju's, daring them to block (or not!) with their Slums, Iwamori's, Kodama's, SSS's, etc.

Kytep


by Kytep on 2006-07-24 05:52 CET

by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-21 18:35 CDT

Either way, if this deck is half as good as the writer suggests, I expect it to be dominating in future masters events. We'll have to see I guess.

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So far, it's only been played by one person in a Master's (and a non-T2 player, at that), yet it almost made T8. That may not be "dominating" yet, but it's a damn good start...

Kytep


by on 2006-07-24 09:39 CET

You removed, in the new version, burn for signets? In a monoR deck with 2 win condition?


by Kytep on 2006-07-24 12:45 CET

by Niksodus on 2006-07-24 04:39 CDT

You removed, in the new version, burn for signets? In a monoR deck with 2 win condition?


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12 win conditions, fed by 4 Cloisters, and 4 of the conditions recur for as many times as I have Mountains (provided they don't get countered or Mountains bounced, but if they're playing Blue, then more conditions come in from the side). So theoretically, there are 28 win conditions in the deck.

I admit I may have gone a bit overboard with the mana, and may take out a few Signets for more creatures/burn.

Kytep


by on 2006-07-24 16:26 CET

Goblin Raider is a 2/1 that cant block and also isn't even T2 legal. WTF is he in your sideboard again?

i'd suggest Mogg Sentry instead for SB. A 3/3 for one against UR control, essentially. he can't die to electroyze, either. All your opponent's counter spells gain "Pay 3 life as an additional cost".


by Kytep on 2006-07-24 16:36 CET

by ElvishGod on 2006-07-24 11:26 CDT

Goblin Raider is a 2/1 that cant block and also isn't even T2 legal. WTF is he in your sideboard again?

i'd suggest Mogg Sentry instead for SB. A 3/3 for one against UR control, essentially. he can't die to electroyze, either. All your opponent's counter spells gain "Pay 3 life as an additional cost".


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Goblin Raider is a 2/2 and is in 9E, so he's T2 legal.

Sentry could work I suppose; might be interesting to try; good point about Electolyze. I'm concered with his ability to beat down, though, if they decide not to play spells on my turn (which could be a great thing in itself...). Then again, he can also survive opposing Pyroclasm, Shock, etc....hmm... May not be such a bad idea; I'll have to test. Thanks.

Kytep


by theTJtrooper on 2006-07-25 01:32 CET

Kytep actually sounds intelligent, if my opinion means anything. I'm a tron player and I would not like to see this deck late in the trials.


by Kytep on 2006-07-25 03:47 CET

by theTJtrooper on 2006-07-24 20:32 CDT

Kytep actually sounds intelligent, if my opinion means anything. I'm a tron player and I would not like to see this deck late in the trials.

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Thank you very much for the kind words. If I get this tuned right, hopefully most non-Tron deck won't want to see it late in trials... :)

(Now if only I were a better player, so I could make it to late trials... :)

Kytep


by on 2006-07-25 03:49 CET

Your deck went from trying to beat tron to becoming tron o.O


by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-25 04:27 CET

on the constructive side of things, I have to suggest some sort of flier or something for midgame. If you are not afraid of, potentially, wasting lands, maybe rathi dragon. If you want to be more of a control deck, I suggest shard phoenix.

Shardy has the added bonus of being a thorn in the spine of glare and forces them to side in a needle, which means they will have something to pith before they pith genju.


by Kytep on 2006-07-25 17:43 CET

by ChristPunchr on 2006-07-24 23:27 CDT

on the constructive side of things, I have to suggest some sort of flier or something for midgame. If you are not afraid of, potentially, wasting lands, maybe rathi dragon. If you want to be more of a control deck, I suggest shard phoenix.

Shardy has the added bonus of being a thorn in the spine of glare and forces them to side in a needle, which means they will have something to pith before they pith genju.

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Thanks for the constructive comments. I briefly tried Rathi, but Boomerang/Eye/Repeal scared me away from that real fast.

Phoenix could be interesting. Although the Cloisters seem to do well as "finishers"; they feed me so many Mountains (not to mention burn/other things) that I can just relentlessly attack with Genju's, and their side goes away in pretty short order.

As for Glare, Blood Moon/Ghost Quarter (and if I want, Stone Rain) can take care of Vitu, and Pyroclasm can clear any critters they drop. Granted, Shardy lets me do this continuously, but he costs 5 (8 to recurse), while Pyro only costs 2 (Pyro can also kill fliers, like Birds, and isn't vulnerable to Pith, like you mentioned). How many times will I have to Pyro in a game? Usually not too much; by the time I have 8 mana to recurse Shardy against a creature deck, I'd probably already have (and rather have) Cloister.

What would you suggest I cut for Shardy?

Kytep


by on 2006-07-26 02:19 CET

This might be Tron, but rolls over to everything else. Why are you writing articles for M-L anyway, random?


by on 2006-07-26 14:45 CET

Ghost Quarter and Blood Moon... nice combo
Run basic mountains :(
The rest is good, and I liked the sentry idea :D


by Kytep on 2006-07-26 17:50 CET

by Rorix on 2006-07-26 09:45 CDT

Ghost Quarter and Blood Moon... nice combo
Run basic mountains :(

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See my post on 2006-07-19 @ 15:34 CDT (above). You can only run 4 Blood Moon, they cost 3, and are counterable. Ghost Quarters fill in until a Moon can hit; then, since they're not needed anymore, it works out great that they turn into Mountains. So when I have no Moon, I'm glad they're Quarters. When I do have Moon, I'm glad they're Mountains. Blood Moon and Ghost Quarter actually work very well together in a mono-Red deck.

Kytep


by Dzy on 2006-07-26 18:24 CET

I just owned this deck with Tron again..


by on 2006-07-28 08:48 CET

I have no problem with this deck whatsoever. In fact everyone that likes it should play it.

I have no prblem with receiving easy match wins in any tournament to a player that thinks this deck has an advantage over the decks you listed.

Byes anyone?

Everyone keeps trying to resurrect anything resembling Red deck wins they can.

And here i thought only a good writer could make it onto M-L..... in actuallity it only takes someone that can type and make up alot of BS stats to try and impress this horrible deck upon people.



by on 2006-07-28 08:52 CET

"all those sick of sitting on the other side of the table from Remand-Mana Leak-Compulsive Research-Keiga-Wildfire, I present…Sick-o-Tron! "

How fitting because none of your cards deal with any of those cards resolved, and all these people singing the decks praises make me sick.


by Kytep on 2006-07-28 20:00 CET

by Tsumuki on 2006-07-28 03:52 CDT

"all those sick of sitting on the other side of the table from Remand-Mana Leak-Compulsive Research-Keiga-Wildfire, I present…Sick-o-Tron! "

How fitting because none of your cards deal with any of those cards resolved, and all these people singing the decks praises make me sick.

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Despite your condescending tone and the apparent facts that you have neither tried this deck against Tron, nor paid attention to the posts of several people here stating that they whip Tron silly with this deck (including a guy who went 4-2 in a MASTER, beating 2 Tron decks "easily...with no problems"), I'll take your implied question here as a serious one, if for no other reason than for the benefit of those who might decide to not dismiss the deck before actually testing it.

1) Remand/Mana Leak
A) A Turn 1 Genju renders these cards useless, and almost always means GG by Turn 5 against Tron.
B) Ghost Quarter is immune to these, and can break up Urzatron.
C) Post-sideboard, I can multi-Spree their Signets, which significantly disrupts their mana base in a way that overwhelms what few Remands/Leaks they may have in hand.
D) Countermagic in general is not unlimited and one of its main weaknesses is threat overload (e.g., weenie rushes, land destruction). Many people not very experienced playing countermagic seem to assume that, in a deck that packs 8 counters, those counters will somehow become infinite, cantrip, and cost zero, thus meaning no other deck can do anything against a deck with countermagic. That simply isn't true. The counters are limited, cost 2 mana each, and will run out. In the meantime, this deck can easily overwhelm the Tron deck with threat overload. They can't counter it all.

2) Compulsive Research: You want to tap out for a 3-drop? Great! I have a 3-drop too: BLOOD MOON. If you don't realize how bad the Moon screws Tron, you haven't tried it. And don't think Repeal gets around it either (see my post on 2006-07-19 @ 17:21 CDT for details).

3) Keiga: You want to tap out for a five-drop? (Assuming of course I haven't killed you with Genju, Sandstalker, and/or Kami yet?) I have a whole slew of things I'd love to do with *my* 5 mana when you're tapped out like that. And don't think you have Urzatron out; remember Ghost Quarters and Blood Moon. As for Signets, meet Kami and Spree. So you're tapping out your 5 lands (or need 7 to keep counter capabilities...if I haven't killed you by then). And what's Keiga going to do? Attack for 5 per turn? Sounds good to me; I'll swing for 6 per turn with my Genju and we'll see who wins that race (and note that I have a head start in that race; I've been burning/attacking you for 4 or 5 turns already). Want to block Genju with Keiga? OK, Genju comes back swinging next turn.

4) Wildfire
A) Like Keiga, this takes a lot of mana. With Ghost Quarter, Blood Moon, Kami, and Spree (from side), good luck getting to 6 mana before I kill you.
B) Even if you do manage to cast it, then what? (Again, see my post on 2006-07-19 @ 17:21 CDT for details.)

This deck doesn't whip every deck like it whips Tron (although it does much better aganist many other decks than most people give it credit), but PLEASE - don't tell me this deck doesn't have a HIGHLY favorable matchup against Tron. It's DESIGNED to beat Tron, and does in fact beat the crap out of it.

(For those who don't seem to get it: "Highly favorable" does not mean 100%, either games or matches. NO deck beats any other deck 100%. So, yes, you may occassionaly beat this deck with Tron, but that will be the exception rather than the rule. For every one match Tron beats this deck, this deck will beat Tron at least 5 or 6 times. So please, stop the "HEY! I beat this once or twice with Tron! Therefore it must lose to Tron!")

Kytep


by ChristPunchr on 2006-08-02 06:42 CET

Hmmm, in regards to something to take out for phoenixes, I'm not too sure. I haven't really played with this deck much. You only need to draw one over the course of a game and that means you could snake three in or so. At a glance, I would be tempted to take out the artilleries, but those could be useful. Overall, I don't think that you'd be able to simply remove four and add them. I think that maybe removing one of something like a cloister and one of a few other things would be better.
Have you considered adding ironfoots to the sideboard for paladins of something along those lines? Come to think of it, shard phenixes could have a place in a sideboard, as opposed to main deck. I would run three though, not four.


by Kytep on 2006-08-02 15:26 CET

by ChristPunchr on 2006-08-02 01:42 CDT

Hmmm, in regards to something to take out for phoenixes, I'm not too sure. I haven't really played with this deck much. You only need to draw one over the course of a game and that means you could snake three in or so. At a glance, I would be tempted to take out the artilleries, but those could be useful. Overall, I don't think that you'd be able to simply remove four and add them. I think that maybe removing one of something like a cloister and one of a few other things would be better.
Have you considered adding ironfoots to the sideboard for paladins of something along those lines? Come to think of it, shard phenixes could have a place in a sideboard, as opposed to main deck. I would run three though, not four.

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I love the Ironfoots idea (I'm actually working on a control deck with them now); they may be better than Artillery in the Main. At the least, I like them in the sb against Paladin like you said. Only problems are, they're mana-intensive and can't shoot opposing creatures like Artillery can, which may be a problem with Genju. However, they do beat down for 3 rather than 1. It may be that against creature decks, I just have to defend with Ironfoots and wait until I get Cloister (or Phoenix) going before I start attacking w/Genju.

Ironfoots also work great with Skred, a card I'm already incorporating from CS as a no-brainer.

Good ideas; thanks.

Kytep


by ChristPunchr on 2006-08-03 01:49 CET

As a sidenote, phoenixes could be good on top of 'clasms for the snakes matchup. Snakes is a machine and a phoenix can take down a four toughness grounder.


by on 2006-08-03 12:55 CET

I'd suggest using Fellwar Stone instead of Signets, as you can activate it the same turn you play it, and with Blood Moon it often hits red anyway.

I'll gladly test the deck a bit for you ^^


by on 2006-08-03 13:57 CET

Wow. I accidentally added 4 mountains instead of 18, yet I did win a match with it?


by ChristPunchr on 2006-08-05 03:23 CET

that's because your deck consisted of about fourteen cards less than normal...


by TugaChampion on 2006-08-05 08:29 CET

Well even if the deck isn't good enough to be considered competitive I always like when someone tries to get rid of tron. And the name says it all about my feelings for tron: I'm sick of it!


by Dzy on 2006-08-15 07:06 CET

I'm 8-0 against this deck with Tron. Enough said.


by Kytep on 2006-08-20 05:34 CET

by Dzy on 2006-08-15 02:06 CDT

I'm 8-0 against this deck with Tron. Enough said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm 12-0 against Tron with this deck. Enough said.


by Kytep on 2006-08-21 07:31 CET

I think I may have found the deck's missing card: Scrying Sheets. Yes, Sheets hate Moon, but I now have Moon in the sideboard. Post-side, I can still hate the living crap out of Tron, but now the deck can handle creature decks much more easily.

Sick-o-Tron v3
4 Genju of the Spires
4 Viashino Sandstalker
4 Phyrexian Ironfoot
4 Hearth Kami
2 Martyr of Ashes (may change to Shard Phoenix)
4 Pyroclasm
4 Seal of Fire
4 Skred
4 Volcanic Hammer
2 Demonfire
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Ghost Quarter
16 Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard
4 Blood Moon
3 Shattering Spree
4 Akki Raider
4 Pithing Needle

The main deck is now geared more towards the longer games, with the incredible Sheets engine feeding it cards, including land for a potential game-ending Demonfire. The Coldsnap cards are simply amazing - Ironfoot, Skred, and Sheets are the MVP's of the deck. The mana curve is now beautiful and the deck has so many answers against creatures (and artifacts, such as Jitte, Coat of Arms, Signets, etc., especially with the sideboard), it's silly. Genju, Sandstalker, and Ironfoot aren't bad beatdown, either. Paladins and 8.5 are of course problems (especially 8.5); my current answers are Ironfoots and Pithing Needles (from the side).

I'd say that with the possible exception of WW, most creature-based matchups are now favorable to this deck (maybe it should be called "Sick-o-Creatures" now?). Skred is definitely the new Swords to Plowshares, and Pyroclasms and Martyrs do a great job against weenies. Sheet-fed Genju's also work great both as offense and as fattie control. Jitte's usually not even a problem; I have up to 7 artifact removal cards (not to mention Needles if I really want to hate Jitte), and even if the Jitte drops first I have plenty of removal to prevent their Jitted creature from dealing damage before I draw my art removal.

I think the deck is developing nicely, and I am seeing some very good results.

Kytep


by Kytep on 2006-08-22 05:59 CET

Just placed second in an Apprentice Trial w/Sick-o-Tron v3. Beat three aggro decks and a control deck to get to the championship, where a single play mistake cost me the title against Zoo. (Not to take away from the winner, Bazzani; he is a better player than I am; my lucky Turn 3 Blood Moon beat him in G2 and his good sideboarding beat me in G3.)

http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/about3941.html

Kytep


by Malhavoc on 2006-08-24 12:07 CET

I don't like your new version. Dropping out bloodmoon seems like a huge mistake. Ironfoot and scrying sheets are too much mana intensive, and the former is not even a solid draw engine. It will be too many times just "pay 2, tap a land: do nothing".

With coldsnap, the only thing I did from the old list was just removing 1 Viashino, 1 artillery, and the 2 tops for 4 martyrs of ashes. That gives the needed board control against aggro decks. Works wonderful this way.


by Kytep on 2006-08-24 16:38 CET

by Malhavoc on 2006-08-24 07:07 CDT

I don't like your new version. Dropping out bloodmoon seems like a huge mistake. Ironfoot and scrying sheets are too much mana intensive, and the former is not even a solid draw engine. It will be too many times just "pay 2, tap a land: do nothing".

With coldsnap, the only thing I did from the old list was just removing 1 Viashino, 1 artillery, and the 2 tops for 4 martyrs of ashes. That gives the needed board control against aggro decks. Works wonderful this way.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it was a difficult decision to put the Moons in the side for Sheets. Also, yes, Ironfoot and Sheets can be mana-intensive (and Sheets generally only pulls something every other activation, meaning on average it costs 6 mana to draw a card with it).

However, this is a control deck, not aggro, and Ironfoot is a beast. It holds off the weenies in the early game, and I can wait until later to start attacking. It works so much better than Artillery, as it answers Paladin very well, doesn't deal damage to you (which is extremely important in aggro matchups), and for 2 mana per turn, has vigilance, so I can put up on offense as well. It can also stop 3/3's (like Watchwolf) and stay on the board, unlike Artillery. As much as I love Artillery, Ironfoot is better. (It's also snowy, which works great with Skred and Sheets. Even if you don't like Sheets, you've gotta give props to Skred, the instant-speed, tap-out Fireball for 1 mana.) Try Ironfoot; I'm sure you'll love him. And Skred - I guarantee you'll love it and not know what you ever did without it! Skred has won me so many games ("Nice Rumbling Slum. EOT, tap one mountain, Skred it. My turn, attack with Genju and Ironfoot for 9.")

As for Sheets, they produce mana and I can again wait until later to use their special ability. Over a longer game (this deck usually wants games to go a bit long), Sheets can generate a lot of advantage, especially feeding me Mountains so I can keep attacking w/Genju. Those Mountains (and other Sheets) also help take care of its own mana-intensity problem; it feeds itself. Card drawing has always been one of Red's glaring weaknesses, and Sheets fills in rather nicely. Although Genju's, Stalkers, and Ironfoots can be mana-intensive, as the game stretches out, I usually have plenty of mana available to activate Sheets (often due to the Sheets, as mentioned). Sheets has saved me a few times too; I'd have 6 mana on the board, would be in trouble, but I activated Sheets, pulled up an Ironfoot, cast it, and stabilized.

I suppose I *could* put Blood Moon back in the Main, even with its anti-synergy with Sheets; I'll consider it again. But decks against which Blood Moon is not optimal (mainly two-colors w/o Tron, like Snakes, B/W, WWr, Gruul, etc.) seem to be gaining in popularity, and in many of those cases, I want Sheets active, making Blood Moons wasted draws. This deck still hoses Tron so much post-side that I can usually handle a Game 1 loss to Tron (and it's still not terrible against Tron Game 1).

As for Martyr, I didn't like him; I like Phoenix a lot better. I've found Martyr to be too situational and the dependence on the number of red cards in your hand can be significant. If you're facing a creature rush and need the Martyr, you may have blown a lot of your red cards dealing with the early rush. Then what do you do? I also like that Phoenix can fly, which means I can sometimes get in those extra few points of damage when I'm facing a difficult ground obstacle (e.g., Caryatid) or block other fliers (e.g., Hippie). Also, Phoenix can come back, which can be great in the longer game, and works well with all of the land I can get with Sheets.

Great points, though; I will think about them more. Thanks for the advice and for continuing to develop (and play!) the deck.

Kytep


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